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Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by nukeman on Thursday May 04, 2023 @07:11PM (#35823333)
Seriously? I’m insanely pro-nuke, and work in the nuclear sector, but Westinghouse should really focus on their AP1000. They’ve already got deals in place with several countries, and now that they’ve got them running in more than one country, there might be a chance of bringing costs down some. The light water SMR market is getting crowded rather fast. They’re competing with both GE (and their BWRX-300) and NuScale (with their modular designs).
Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by BMc2020 on Thursday May 04, 2023 @07:39PM (#35823573)
Didn't the PRC buy 4 AP1000s and then start building their own knockoff? (not pirated so much as that was one of their demands and Westinghouse accepted)?
Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by mandevil on Thursday May 04, 2023 @08:23PM (#35823896)
Anything bigger than 1600MW, Westinghouse doesn't get a licensing fee for it getting built. So they are building 1600MW size right now.
Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by Animats on Thursday May 04, 2023 @07:22PM (#35823412)
This seems to be a smaller version of the AP1000. Nice big containment vessel. That's a good thing. Fukushima had an undersized containment which failed, and Chernobyl didn't have much of one at all. Three Mile Island had a good containment vessel, and so their meltdown damage was contained.

Some of the "small modular nuclear reactor designs are built on the assumption that they don't need a full scale containment vessel because nothing can go that wrong. That may not be a good assumption. There's a lot to be said for large amounts of steel and concrete around reactors.

Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by evilos on Friday May 05, 2023 @07:40AM (#35827961)
Which SMRs don't have a full scale containment vessel?
Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by pfdietz on Friday May 05, 2023 @08:42AM (#35828478)
None, although I think some (NuScale?) save money by sharing pressurized containment volume among multiple reactors. Just hope you don't see multiple correlated meltdowns.

Containment vessels could also be made smaller if steam filtering were used instead of planning to just contain and condense it. I don't know if any SMRs plan to do this.

Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by Animats on Friday May 05, 2023 @02:41PM (#35833491)
NuScale's containment vessel is a metal cylinder around the reactor.[1] Each reactor has its own containment vessel. It's just slightly larger than the reactor, like Fukushima and Peach Bottom. Here's a good drawing.[2] No user-serviceable parts inside. The building is not a containment.

[1] https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1535/ML15355A411.pdf

[2] https://spectrum.ieee.org/media-library/image.jpg?id=2557419...

Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by evilos on Monday May 08, 2023 @09:02PM (#35869008)
As other poster mentioned, each nuscale module is fully self contained. Not only that, but they've modeled every module having a simultaneous scram in a 12 module plant, and modeled that the water level was lower than nominal. Still walk away safe.
Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by epistasis on Thursday May 04, 2023 @08:06PM (#35823785)
Given the track record of AP1000 construction, who do you think would ever order one?

I don't see a future for this. If somebody thought it was a feasible design for construction in Western countries, they could buy the half completed sites at Summer for a song.

I also think 300MW is too big. It's not really small enough to get the supposed benefits of small and modular.

The entire nuclear industry appears to be off its rocker when it comes to designs that are possible to construct for any reasonable amount of money. They bungled the AP1000 so badly that it bankrupted Westinghouse, and there's no reason to believe that they learned enough from the experience to do better next time. It's all terribly depressing, and completely soured me on the possibility of nuclear for the next 20-40 years. And in 20-40 years, look at how far storage, wind, and solar will have developed. It's unlikely that my nuclear will ever be a dominant energy source.

Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by pfdietz on Thursday May 04, 2023 @10:18PM (#35824564)
The whole industry, and its fan base, has descended into overt magical thinking. It is sad, and not a little ridiculous.
Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by m4rtink on Thursday May 04, 2023 @10:22PM (#35824581)
Some older plant blocks were in the 300-500 MW range so I guess you could replace them with this ?
Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by pfdietz on Friday May 05, 2023 @08:40AM (#35828464)
Those older plants in the US have been shut down because they can't even earn back their operating costs.
Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by dirtsoc on Thursday May 04, 2023 @11:22PM (#35824859)
What's sad is that it's mainly the US that has problems with this. China has managed to bring multiple of this reactor design to fruition while the US still screws around with building just two. I live in Georgia and the almost decade of overruns and corruption are being about to be paid for by Georgia Power customers via rate hikes.
Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by epistasis on Friday May 05, 2023 @12:48AM (#35825317)
France and Finland have had excessive difficulty with their EPR.

My hypothesis is that modern economies with high wages will simply not be able to build a nuclear reactor economically. It appears to require a certain amount of 20th century technological advancement, but not so much economic advancement that labor costs are too high.

France had a much better track record with nuclear in their first round of building. France can also build large construction projects without the massive cost overruns that the US has had. But they can't seem to get a next gen reactor built.

Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by bjornsing on Friday May 05, 2023 @04:29AM (#35826682)
Interesting hypothesis…
Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by natmaka on Friday May 05, 2023 @07:29AM (#35827878)
The first EPR project in France (Flamanville-3) had problems documented in an official report (dubbed 'Folz', per the name of its main author), sadly AFAIK it wasn't translated into English: https://www.economie.gouv.fr/rapport-epr-flamanville

A piece about it: https://www.archyde.com/the-folz-report-draws-up-a-severe-as...

This study may also offer some hints: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030142151...

Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by Reason077 on Friday May 05, 2023 @07:47AM (#35828026)
It's a bit simplistic to blame only labour costs. Large, complex civil projects often have cost and schedule overruns because contractors know they're going to get paid anyway so are incentivised to make the project slower and more expensive.

Smaller, simpler projects don't tend to have the same issues because contractors know they can be replaced easily if they fail.

Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by pfdietz on Friday May 05, 2023 @08:39AM (#35828458)
Renewable projects also can be rolled out in stages, so if the contractors are scammers it shows up early.
Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by sofixa on Friday May 05, 2023 @09:18AM (#35828863)
Because those were the first EPRs ever. Now that most caveats and issues are discovered, next ones should be drastically faster and easier.

> France can also build large construction projects without the massive cost overruns that the US has had

Not always, some easily go overboard, like with the Parisian Philharmonic, or the absolutely massive Grand Paris Express (~200km of new high capacity metro lines around Paris) which has seen the budget go up from an original estimate of 19 billion to 35 billion (euros). Completely normal considering the scale and complexity, but still.

Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by Gwypaas on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:23AM (#35830431)
Hinkley Point C, started 12 years later, is going swimmingly I hear! Going to cost the consumers ~$150/MWh and it is starting to look likely that EDF even at that incredibly high price takes a loss on it.

> Since construction began in March 2017, the project has been subject to several delays, including some caused by the COVID-19 pandemic,[10] and this has resulted in significant budget overruns. As of May 2022, the project is two years late and the expected cost is £25–26 billion,[11] 50% more than the original budget from 2016. It is currently planned to be commissioned in June 2027 and has a projected lifetime of 60 years. In February 2023, EDF announced that costs would rise to £32.7bn and completion would be delayed by a further 15 months to September 2028.[2][12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_Point_C_nuclear_power_...

Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by sofixa on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:48AM (#35830819)
Started before all problems had been fixed with Flamanville and Olkiluoto, it's a part of the initial generation.
Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by Gwypaas on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:50AM (#35830866)
Is not the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?
Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by sofixa on Friday May 05, 2023 @12:34PM (#35831680)
When building complex infrastructure for the second/third/etc. time? Of course not. Economies of scale is the term you're looking for.
Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by Gwypaas on Friday May 05, 2023 @01:00PM (#35832069)
Hinkley is the fourth time, still no dice.
Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by epistasis on Friday May 05, 2023 @04:57PM (#35835077)
When has nuclear ever had economies of scale?
Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by epistasis on Friday May 05, 2023 @01:36PM (#35832564)
Do you have any examples of a very high cost reactor dropping by a significant amount on a subsequent build?

South Korea was able to eke our small decreases in cost (though some people have ended up in jail for falsifying record keeping). But otherwise, costs tend to rise. And I'm definitely not aware of a drop of 50% or so, to bring these excessive costs into the realm of competitiveness.

Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by przemo_li on Friday May 05, 2023 @09:35AM (#35829023)
French scenario could have been avoided is much better loans where secured. Delays skyrocketed costs for to fat % on those financing agreements.

Which is 101 of big projects anyway. Hard to understand why french project wasn't deemed to risky to investors.

Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by alliao on Thursday May 04, 2023 @08:11PM (#35823815)
SMR is being sold as smaller thus inferring smaller mess when disaster strikes but I don't see that anywhere can you shed some light on whether it's safer? perhaps the smaller containment meant it can be constructed to a higher threshold?
Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by jabl on Friday May 05, 2023 @02:31AM (#35825880)
Smaller tends to mean it's easier to make things like passive emergency cooling systems (e.g. using convection and gravity), so you're not dependent on the diesel gensets actually starting when they're really needed.
Re:Westinghouse AP300 Small Module Reactor by DarkNova6 on Friday May 05, 2023 @03:30AM (#35826315)
maybe for the immediate future. But their best prospects by far lie in their LFR (Lead Fast Reactor) concept.

Lead is such a superior concept for reactor design and neutron economy, and mostly held back by the pace in material science.