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Re:Renting Horsepower by jrockway on Thursday May 04, 2023 @02:27PM (#35819973)
Isn't this all the same thing as what airlines did after 9/11? You pay the fare and get a seat. Want it to not be a middle seat? That's $50. Want to carry on a bag? That's $50. Want to check a bag? That's $50. Want to check out the lounge before you depart? That's $50. Want some WiFi? That's $50. Want a snack? That's $50. Now your flight is $200 more than the quoted fare. (OK OK you can probably get WiFi and a snack for less than $50.)

Everyone seems to love this, or at least, they didn't stop flying. So why would any rational company not try to use this business model? Your AAA game gets to be $59.99 + $0.99 download, and your competitor's game is $60.00. Sort by price ascending makes you the top result, but you actually get $0.99 more money with each copy sold.

You are right that legislation is the only answer to curb this abuse. Consumers fall for it hook/line/sinker. Companies can't resist free money.

Re:Renting Horsepower by electriclove on Thursday May 04, 2023 @02:44PM (#35820206)
People don’t love that about the airlines. People hate it.
Re:Renting Horsepower by gffrd on Thursday May 04, 2023 @04:15PM (#35821463)
… but they like saving money more than they hate it.
Re:Renting Horsepower by lp0_on_fire on Thursday May 04, 2023 @02:44PM (#35820212)
I don’t think that people -_love it_ or _fall for it_ per se. rather, people don’t have much of a choice but to accept it unless they can afford to fly private.

You can’t really fly and not take luggage with you, for example.

Re:Renting Horsepower by crooked-v on Thursday May 04, 2023 @02:53PM (#35820347)
> Now your flight is $200 more than the quoted fare.

> Everyone seems to love this, or at least, they didn't stop flying.

Nobody "loves" it. They just have to put up with it because even for people who know what they're doing with flight searches, the only way to dig into all that dark pattern shit is to have fifty browser tabs open comparing the fine details of different flights.

If it was possible to, say, compare all those up-charges up front using flight search tools, I'm sure you'd see a lot more people choosing the slightly more expensive tickets.

Re:Renting Horsepower by Plasmoid on Thursday May 04, 2023 @04:30PM (#35821639)
Google flights will let you input the number of bags you are checking/carrying on to produce a "final" price.
Re:Renting Horsepower by crooked-v on Thursday May 04, 2023 @05:19PM (#35822239)
That still leaves out leg room, meal service, lounge access, and all the other things that somebody might want.
Re:Renting Horsepower by ido on Thursday May 04, 2023 @05:01PM (#35822020)
I mean, you do get to know airlines by reputation - generally speaking I expect Ryanair to do all the bullshit dark pattern nickel and diming and not expect it from national airlines like Lufthansa.
Re:Renting Horsepower by Kirby64 on Thursday May 04, 2023 @05:12PM (#35822141)
I think overall you overestimate the amount most people fly. Generally, many people fly very little or almost never. Sure, there's world travelers that know who are bad airlines, but knowing the 'secrets' to not having a bad flight is assuming a lot of the average occasional flight consumer.
Re:Renting Horsepower by dsr_ on Thursday May 04, 2023 @06:42PM (#35823093)
And the people who fly a lot? Almost all of them are flying on business, on somebody else's money.

Which is also why the hotel where people stay when they're visiting friends has free wifi, and the hotel next to the convention center does not.

Re:Renting Horsepower by alexb_ on Thursday May 04, 2023 @03:04PM (#35820529)
...Are you of the impression that people like this? People hate it. It's like, the one thing everyone complains about all the time when flying. How did you get to the conclusion that people like this about flights
Re:Renting Horsepower by jrockway on Thursday May 04, 2023 @04:31PM (#35821662)
Actions speak louder than words. People say they hate it. But they aren't upgrading to all-inclusive first class or full-fare economy tickets. They happily buy the cheapest flight, whine, and then do it all against the next time they take a vacation.

To some extent, this is quite rational. You're in pain for like 2 hours because the seat pitch is now 4 inches. But then you get off the flight and never think about it again. The fact that flights include things that people don't need to have just made air travel more accessible, though less fun.

Re:Renting Horsepower by Entinel on Thursday May 04, 2023 @04:37PM (#35821718)
Have you considered that most people can't afford to upgrade to first class? The choice is either deal with the shit seat or not go on vacation.
Re:Renting Horsepower by jrockway on Thursday May 04, 2023 @04:39PM (#35821745)
Of course. It being cheaper is why people like it. Same reason that games are free and offer DLC, or Mercedes offers a car that could go faster if you have extra money laying around this month.

I hate the nickel and diming but it does make things more accessible in general.

Re:Renting Horsepower by bick_nyers on Thursday May 04, 2023 @04:50PM (#35821867)
It would maybe make things more accessible if there were caps on corporate profits. As it stands, corporations have 0 obligation to pass those savings on to consumers.
Re:Renting Horsepower by SketchySeaBeast on Thursday May 04, 2023 @05:28PM (#35822322)
A $60/month difference is not what's going to make or break someone buying a Mercedes. Flying economy is cheap enough that many people can do it, there is no right Mercedes subscription model that will get people into one of their cars.
Re:Renting Horsepower by jrockway on Thursday May 04, 2023 @06:28PM (#35822963)
That's exactly right. If they want $6000 dollars more for the car over the lifetime of the car, the $6000 being right there in the sticker price might dissuade some buyers. But if they say it's $60/month, now you're only looking at the sticker price, and the Mercedes is cheaper than the everything-included BMW, so you buy that instead. (Sorry, I don't know enough about cars to know if Mercedes vs. BMW is a comparison that people make. I never even got a driver's license.)

This additionally acts as a nice A/B test; you sell the same car and get data on whether or not people would pay $6000 more for it to be faster.

I reflexively hate this, but it seems so rational to me.

Re:Renting Horsepower by ryandrake on Thursday May 04, 2023 @06:27PM (#35822944)
Just because somebody buys something, that doesn't mean they like it. I don't like my ISP. It's shit service at a ridiculous price. I pay for it because the glorious free market has failed to provide acceptable options. No ISPs provide good service for a reasonable price. Therefore, my choice is to pay for something I don't like, or not have Internet.

Every time a company finds a way to make the product worse but increase profits, they will do it, and all other companies will eventually have to do it in order to remain competitive. It's an inevitable force that is built into the so-called free market. Nearly every product available today is worse and/or more expensive than an otherwise comparable product 10 years ago.

Mark my words, bookmark this comment and come back in 10 years. If these subscriptions turn out to be profitable, then in 2033, every car manufacturer will have functionality locked behind monthly subscriptions. And people will buy them because they have no other choice besides not buying a car. There will be no way to vote with your wallet--you'll just have to abstain with your wallet.

Re:Renting Horsepower by xp84 on Thursday May 04, 2023 @07:14PM (#35823356)
Yeah, it's especially toxic to capitalism when tight oligopolies (like the car industry, telecoms, mobile phone OSs) develop. Barriers to entry are super high, so when one company does a customer-hostile move like this and makes money, the others know everyone else will follow suit too, so rather than advertise how they won't exploit you like the bad guys do, everyone just adopts or "improves on" the d*ck move. Think about it. Some car company was the first to do a Destination Fee. Some ISP invented the bandwidth cap. And somehow these became universal, because who would/could challenge the oligopoly?
Re:Renting Horsepower by matwood on Thursday May 04, 2023 @05:47PM (#35822556)
Don't really love or hate, but am ok with it. If I'm flying something short, I'll buy the cheapest ticket possible, which are really cheap now. Longer flights I like being able to get more leg room w/o having to spring for first class.

There is a large group of people who only want the cheapest flight possible, then there is a decent sized group who want more than basic economy, but don't want to pay for first class. This is basic customer segmenting.

Re:Renting Horsepower by WillPostForFood on Thursday May 04, 2023 @05:11PM (#35822134)
You are right that legislation is the only answer to curb this abuse.

Perhaps! But a big part of the problem is airlines have near monopolies on domestic routes. I want to fly non-stop to Charlotte, my only choice is American, I want to fly to Atlanta, my only choice is Delta, for the same price as a flight to Europe. Some monopoly enforcement, or laws requiring more airport diversity might fix this without micromanaging prices or services.

Re:Renting Horsepower by mikestew on Thursday May 04, 2023 @05:22PM (#35822266)
Everyone seems to love this, or at least, they didn't stop flying.

“Complains about air pollution, but still breathes the air”, amirite? Or perhaps there’s another explanation for the dynamic. Because I can tell you that my game-buying habits have changed as a result of your parallel example.

Re:Renting Horsepower by pmontra on Thursday May 04, 2023 @05:47PM (#35822547)
People pay the fare and usually don't buy any extra. And the plane doesn't go any faster if all passengers paid an hypothetical Speed Improvement.
Re:Renting Horsepower by smeej on Thursday May 04, 2023 @07:34PM (#35823518)
There's a big difference between something you rent and something you own.

You rent seats on planes. Some seats are more desirable than others, so you pay more to rent those. You rent access to their storage space. You rent access to their services. The seat doesn't come with food, so if you want the food they have on the plane, you buy that from them. If you don't, someone on the next flight will.

When you buy a car, ostensibly you own the car. It's your property. A company should not be able to disable features unless you pay them not to, indefinitely, on something you own.

Re:Renting Horsepower by dreamcompiler on Thursday May 04, 2023 @08:37PM (#35823986)
The key here is that because the US government's antitrust division has been sitting on its hands for 40 years, there are now only 4 airlines in the US. This lack of competition means that all 4 can play this game (except Southwest, which has other problems) because there's not enough competition to stop it.

But there are more than 4 car companies. There's enough competition to stop this kind of horseshit, which is a fact Mary Barra seems not to recognize.