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Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by jjice on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @10:47AM (#35803053)
Does anyone have any resources they recommend for just understanding the base terminology of models like this? I always see the terms "weights", "tokens", "model", etc. I feel like I understand what these mean, but I have no idea what I need to care about them for in open models like this? If I were to download an open model to run on my machine, would I download the weights? I'm just ignorant in the ML space I guess but not sure where to start.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by visarga on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @11:40AM (#35803733)
Psst ... why don't you spend 30 minutes of quality time with chatGPT and get to the bottom of this? Get those personalised explanations and enjoy its unlimited patience.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by tikkun on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @11:51AM (#35803868)
I think this is the right answer, ChatGPT is an excellent 1-1 tutor.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by rodoxcasta on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @12:00PM (#35804002)
But, this doesn't is a bad ideia when you don't know even the basics? Because you wouldn't be able to separate genuine information to subtle or not so subtle hallucinations.

It's like generating code in a language that you know nothing about. You should check for bugs, but you can't.

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by 2devnull on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @12:07PM (#35804090)
The first thing to learn is you can’t trust the internet. From that you’ll know not to trust gpt. If you are prone to trusting things blindly, without doing your own research or verification, you have far bigger problems than gpt “hallucinations” (frankly a terrible terminology).
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by digging on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @12:17PM (#35804208)
I find "hallucinations" to be pretty apt. What works better in your opinion?
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by jstarfish on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @12:51PM (#35804651)
Lies. Bullshit. Con artistry.

It's not perceiving reality incorrectly, it's presenting wholesale fiction as fact both coherently and with absolute confidence. It even forges supporting documentation ad-hoc.

GPT is not a poor schizophrenic suffering from delusions or innocuous "hallucinations." It is the world's most advanced liar.

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by wingspar on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @01:18PM (#35805026)
For me, hallucination is better.

Lies, BS, and Con artistry all require conscious motive and intent. Thats a bridge to far, for me, in ascribing ‘intelligence’ to these models.

Hallucination, to me, conveys ‘seeing things (facts) that are not there’. To the extent the models are ‘perceiving’, they ARE perceiving reality incorrectly. Granted, I expect many times it’s because the source of the model training data are, at best, just wrong or are lying.

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by windsignaling on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @01:14PM (#35804980)
> Lies. Bullshit. Con artistry.

These are worse as they imply the thing generating the words knows the truth and purposely says something else.

An LLM is just doing next token prediction. It's a mathematical process. It's not trying to "hide" the truth from you.

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by digging on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @02:11PM (#35805700)
Those are very inaccurate descriptors. A lie is an intentional deception, which is impossible for GPT. It "believes" that it "knows" something about the world, which happens to have been made up wholesale by its "subconscious" (obviously I know it's not a human brain). That is pretty much a hallucination by definition, applied to a non-human "intelligence".

Besides,

> it's presenting wholesale fiction as fact both coherently and with absolute confidence

That is not in any way distinct from perceiving reality incorrectly. It is a symptom common to both skilled lying and hallucination.

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by starfallg on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @02:18PM (#35805781)
The neurological term for it is "Confabulation", which is a lot better than "Hallucination" as used in AI.

Confabulation is the unintended generation of false memories.

Hallucination is false perception.

Clearly, the phenomenon we are seeing with LLM researchers call Hallucination better fits Confabulation.

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by moomoo3000 on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @03:00PM (#35806314)
I think the horse had left the barn on this one.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by szundi on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @03:39PM (#35806708)
Sometimes it helps when the audience gets the meaning of a word. Confabulation is not really popular among non-native english speakers, I am sure.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by qup on Thursday May 04, 2023 @08:49AM (#35814448)
It's also not popular among native English speakers, I can assure you.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by digging on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @04:11PM (#35807120)
I don't actually think either term is more precise than the other when we're talking about LLMs, which aren't human brains. It doesn't have either memory or perception in a way that we do.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by nborwankar on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @05:57PM (#35808323)
“Confidently presented bullshit” is probably much more accurate. Added benefit no new vocabulary terms :-)
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by hansvm on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @12:04PM (#35804059)
Anyone can evaluate whether it's giving you a self-consistent set of statements, and the additional words it spits out are helpful for a traditional search for alternative sources.

IMO, so long as you're aware the information is often subtly wrong, it's not that different from, e.g., physics classes progressively lying to you less to allow your brain to build a framework to house the incoming ideas.

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by vibrolax on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @04:15PM (#35807178)
I like the term "confabulation". A hallucination is an artifact of an intoxicated or malfunctioning brain. In my experience, confabulation is a common occurrence in normal brains, and can occur without intention. It's why humans make such poor witnesses. It's how the brain fills in the blanks in its senses and experience.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by babyshake on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @04:53PM (#35807650)
I think of the good things to get a sense of with ChatGPT is the types of areas where it is most and least likely to confabulate. If I asked it for an ELI5 about key concepts relating to how LLMs work, I would be highly confident it would be accurate. When you start asking about truly esoteric topics, that's when it often starts completely making things up.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by newswasboring on Thursday May 04, 2023 @02:06AM (#35811746)
In my opinion people are way more afraid of hallucinations than they should be. You are not asking it to solve world hunger, this is basically like asking it to summarize Wikipedia articles. At least with GPT4 it doesn't hallucinate on basic things. I am learning typescript with it, and it hasn't given me wrong answers to direct questions yet. If you are too worried about hallucinations use something like phind.com which will give some sources.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by cogitoergofutuo on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @12:10PM (#35804122)
> Psst ... why don't you spend 30 minutes of quality time with chatGPT and get to the bottom of this?

I do not use ChatGPT as a search engine. Its ability to confidently hallucinate consistently places it much below a human expert on any topic that I care to understand correctly.

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by CamperBob2 on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @01:42PM (#35805352)
That attitude is going to cost you. You'll have no choice but to abandon it at some point, as the LLM implementations get better. The improvements in GPT4 over 3.5 alone are enough to dispel a lot of my own initial skepticism.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by cogitoergofutuo on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @02:08PM (#35805663)
> That attitude is going to cost you.

I don’t think it will cost me much to not use the explicitly-not-a-search-engine thing as a search engine.

Which LLM will you use to verify that ChatGPT is more knowledgeable than human experts on a given topic?

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by CamperBob2 on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @02:50PM (#35806199)
The thing is, your mistake isn't just distrusting the language model, it's trusting the search engine. No matter what tool you use, the responsibility for ensuring accuracy is ultimately yours. Similar degrees of caution and skepticism must be applied to results from both ML and traditional search engines.

They are both insanely powerful tools, and like most insanely powerful tools, the hazards are considerable.

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by cogitoergofutuo on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @03:22PM (#35806553)
> The thing is, your mistake…

This is a weird thing to write to a stranger. I suppose there will be no need to caution people about rudeness or making strange assumptions in the utopian future where humans only talk to chatbots, though.

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by marshray on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @06:07PM (#35808448)
We're starting to be able to tell the humans from the bots because the bots can consistently demonstrate better social skills.

Of course, it will be trivial for such bots to emulate humans if they find that useful.

Fun times.

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by cogitoergofutuo on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @06:46PM (#35808850)
It will be a wondrous day that we can finally see a computer capture the distinctly-human Urge to Post. The je ne sais quoi that makes us all donate our takes to the needy is an organic phenomenon so far.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by CamperBob2 on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @07:36PM (#35809310)
The je ne sais quoi that makes us all donate our takes to the needy is an organic phenomenon so far.

"I do not use ChatGPT as a search engine. Its ability to confidently hallucinate consistently places it much below a human expert on any topic that I care to understand correctly."

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by cogitoergofutuo on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @07:47PM (#35809416)
The je ne sais quoi that makes us all donate our takes to the needy is an organic phenomenon so far.

:)

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by CamperBob2 on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @08:16PM (#35809649)
Exactly. Just pointing out that it's not "weird" to answer an opinion disguised as an axiom with another just like it. You shared your position in no uncertain terms and I did the same. It's all good, welcome to HN.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by cogitoergofutuo on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @09:12PM (#35810045)
Yes. It would have been a very strange joke about posters if I somehow tried to say that I am not myself a poster, in a post. That would have been a weird thing to imply.

Thank goodness that I didn’t do that, I’d certainly have egg on my face if I hadn’t included myself in the joke and somebody called me out on it!

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by marshray on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @07:24PM (#35809204)
well_actually.py
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by duskwuff on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @04:25PM (#35807290)
> The thing is, your mistake isn't just distrusting the language model, it's trusting the search engine.

There is a rather substantial difference between a search engine, which suggests sources which the reader can evaluate based on their merits, and a language model, whose output may or may not be based on any sources at all, and which cannot (accurately) cite sources for statements it makes.

> Similar degrees of caution and skepticism must be applied to results from both ML and traditional search engines.

This is a fairly ridiculous statement.

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by CamperBob2 on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @07:38PM (#35809330)
This is a fairly ridiculous statement.

Really? Have you used Google lately -- say, in the past 6-12 months?

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by cogitoergofutuo on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @09:57PM (#35810366)
I personally use search engines on a daily basis. They link me to external websites that I can trust or distrust to varying degrees depending on my prior experience with them and the amount of further research I put in.

If a person is in the habit of using a search engine like a chat bot by typing in questions AskJeeves-style and then believing what text pops up in the info cards above the ads (which are themselves above the search results), I could see how the distinction between chat bots and search engines could seem trivial.

The similarity between chat bots and search engines breaks down significantly if the user scrolls down past the info cards and ads and then clicks on a link to an external website. At that point in the user experience it is no longer like chatting with a confident NPC.

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by inkysigma on Thursday May 04, 2023 @05:59AM (#35813185)
Without a search engine, how am I supposed to weigh the accuracy of an LLM? How am I supposed to take responsibility for ensuring accuracy?

I also think people who say that search engines lie are seriously overestimating the amount of lies on returned by a search result. Social media is one thing but the broader internet is filled with articles from relatively reputable sources. When I Google "what is a large language model" my top results (there aren't even ads on this particular query to really muddle things) are:

1. Wikipedia

Sure this is the most obvious place for lies but we already understand that. Moreover, the people writing the text have some notion of what is true and false unlike an LLM. I can always also use the links it provides.

2. Nvidia

Sure they have a financial motive to promote LLMs but I don't see a reason they have to outright mislead me. They also happen to publish a significant amount of ML research so probably a good source.

3. TechTarget

I don't know this source well but their description seems to agree deeply with the other two so I can be relatively sure on both this and the others' accuracy. It's a really similar story with Bing. I can also look for sources that cite specific people like a sourced Forbes article that interviews people from an LLM company.

With multiple sources, I can also build a consensus on what an LLM is and reach out further. If I really want to be sure I can type a site:edu to just double check. When I have the source and the text I can test both agreement with consensus and weigh the strength of a source. I can't do that with an LLM since it's the same model when you reprompt. I get that LLMs can give a good place to begin by giving you keywords and phrases to search but it's a really, really poor replacement for search or for learning stuff you don't have experience in.

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by unethical_ban on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @01:17PM (#35805010)
Not the OP, I'm still hesitant because it infuriates me I have to give them my identity which they will then log every prompt against. You think they aren't building profiles on people? AI moties(more in gods eye reference )is what they are.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by Salgat on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @01:39PM (#35805312)
These are explanations that make sense to people who already know how deep learning works but don't really explain much to beginners beyond giving them a grossly oversimplified misrepresentation of what is being discussed (while not actually explaining anything).

My advice to folks is, if you actually want to know how this stuff works at some basic level, put in some time learning how basic linear and logistic regression work, including how to train it using back propagation. From there you'll have a solid foundation that gives enough context to understand most deep learning concepts at a high level.

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by visarga on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @04:51PM (#35807623)
It was intended as a demystification, not a total explanation. There are millions of places explaining with technical details.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by agentdrtran on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @02:34PM (#35805990)
> why don't you spend 30 minutes of quality time with chatGPT and get to the bottom of this?

when it can hallucinate content, why do that instead of reading a blog post from an expert?

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by visarga on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @04:52PM (#35807637)
Oh no, it will hallucinate an obscure fact, but not basics. It's pretty good at reciting theory, it would pass many ML engineering theoretical interviews.

If you don't trust its memory, copy a piece of high quality text in the topic of interest inside the context, as reference.

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by agentdrtran on Monday May 08, 2023 @04:21PM (#35866553)
it's repeatedly made up entire quotes and research papers?
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by heliophobicdude on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @11:28AM (#35803567)
Probably not the answer you would like but I think your approach to download them and figure out how to run them on your machine is a good one. You don't need to understand everything to get something working. It can be overwhelming and unproductive to know everything before getting started.

To learn more deeply though, get started with getting it to work and when you are curious or something doesn't work, try to understand why and recursively go back to fill in the foundational details.

Example, download the code try to get it to work. Why is it not working? Oh it's trying to look for the model. Search for how to get the model and set it up. Then key step, recursively look up every single thing in the guide or set up. Don't try to set something up or fix some thing without truly understanding what it is you are doing (e.g. copy and paste). This gives you a structured why to fill in the foundations of what it is you are trying to get to work in a more focused and productive manner. At the end you might realize that their approach or yours is not optimal "oh it was telling me to download the 65k model when I can only run 7k on my machine bc ..."

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by zoogeny on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @11:10AM (#35803327)
Andrej Karpathy's Zero to Hero video series [1] is a good middle ground. It isn't super low-level but it also isn't super high-level. I think seeing how the pieces actually fit together in a working project is valuable to get a real understanding.

After going through this series I can say I basically understand weights, tokens, back-propagation, layers, embeddings, etc.

1. https://karpathy.ai/zero-to-hero.html

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by data_maan on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @12:28PM (#35804341)
When was this published? Is this an older tutorial by Karpathy?

Just curious, didn't see any date...

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by knutzui on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @01:11PM (#35804934)
The first class is 8 months old and the latest one is 3 months old. If you click on the links, they'll direct you to YouTube videos.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by rini17 on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @01:12PM (#35804948)
On youtube you can. First video 8 months ago.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by CamperBob2 on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @01:45PM (#35805391)
I'm working my way through that series now. He really is a good teacher -- I keep waiting for the inevitable "Next, draw the rest of the fucking owl" moment, but so far he does seem to be sticking to his commitment to a from-scratch approach.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by mabbo on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @11:11AM (#35803345)
Weights are basically number/float variables. In neural networks, vectors of values are multiplied (or math'd in some way) by weights to get new vectors of values. A 500 billion weight model has 500 billion variables, all carefully chosen via training.

A model is some architecture of how data will flow through these weight matrices, along with the values of each weight.

Tokens are sort of "words" in a sentence, but the ML may be translating the word itself into a more abstract concept in 'word space': eg, a bunch of floating point values.

At least some of what I just said is probably wrong, but now someone will correct me and we'll both me more right!

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by mrtranscendence on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @11:25AM (#35803537)
At a first approximation this is pretty good. I wouldn't say this exactly:

> A model is some architecture of how data will flow through these weight matrices, along with the values of each weight.

Because data doesn't really flow through weight matrices, though perhaps this is true if you squint at very simple models. Deep learning architectures are generally more complicated than multiplying values by weights and pushing the results to the next layer, though which architecture to use depends heavily on context.

> Tokens are sort of "words" in a sentence

Tokens are funny. What a token is depends on the context of the model you're using, but generally a token is a portion of a word. (Why? Efficiency is one reason; handling unknown words is another.)

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by jstarfish on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @12:55PM (#35804708)
> What a token is depends on the context of the model you're using, but generally a token is a portion of a word.

When doing quick estimates, I just assume every syllable is a token. It tends to overestimate, which is fine for my OOM mitigation purposes.

Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by mhh__ on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @11:16AM (#35803402)
A book about AI. (Norvig and Russell comes to mind)
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by 2devnull on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @12:04PM (#35804050)
For a good general non-technical introduction I recommend the YouTube computerphile series related to language models, transformers and other general concepts. If you are interested in actually doing stuff there’s an over abundance of material out there already, if you try looking.
Re:OpenLLaMA: An Open Reproduction of LLaMA by bobbyi on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @05:40PM (#35808162)
I haven't watched it yet, but the Practical Deep Learning for Coders course that's available on YouTube is often recommended