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Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by ajsnigrutin on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:30PM (#35756270)
There is also a third problem with this.... what happens when shit hits the fan?

If you use gas and your neighbours use electricity, and there's suddenly a power outage, you can help your neighbors and heat/cook their food too,... or in case of a gas system outage, they can help with yours. If you heat with gas, you don't freeze even with a power outage, and can still buy a cheap electric heater with a gas outage... if you heat with electricity, you can atleast try to find someone with gas heat to let you sleep over and not freeze.

Banning everything except electricity is just calling for a catastrophy.

(yes yes, i know, old heaters will stay, this applies only to new construction, but in 30 years, most old devices will be replaced too)

edit: i don't know why the downvotes... probably not many people from texas here... or anywhere else in the world... or maybe people think that NY is somehow immune to such outages

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by amrocha on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:37PM (#35756338)
If "shit hits the fan" to the point that you don't have electricity for several weeks then it's unreasonable to expect to be able to shelter in your own home imo.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by jprete on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:57PM (#35756562)
Sheltering away from home is extremely expensive, disrupts anything resembling normal life - which a power outage does not - and may not even be possible if a large fraction of the local population all tries to find a hotel outside of the outage area at the same time.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by MereInterest on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:21PM (#35757317)
> which a power outage does not

Things that don't work without electric power:

* Refrigeration. For a 6-12 hour power outage, leaving the doors closed is sufficient. For 1-3 days, fridge temperatures may be maintained by buying bags of ice, but not a freezer.

* Emergency communication. Landline phones might still function, depending on exactly where the breakage occurred. Cell phones have 24-48 hours of battery power at the most.

* Central heating. Even a gas furnace requires electricity for its controller.

* Kitchen ranges (conditional). For a gas range, this depends on whether you have a lighter or matches.

A power outage disrupts normal life. During a power outage, you cannot cook food, cannot preserve food, and cannot heat your home. Depending on the duration, sheltering away from home may be the less disruptive option.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by amrocha on Sunday April 30, 2023 @02:04PM (#35765012)
I mean, ideally it should be free to go to a community shelter. If it's not a disaster and just an unfortunate situation, that's what insurance is for. I guess I don't know what a natural disaster would be like where you're from. This is why I live in Japan, where disaster preparedness is taken extremely seriously at a societal level.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by toast0 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:16PM (#35756722)
In the conditions where electricity is out for several weeks, transportation between your home and a community shelter may also be unreasonable.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by brewdad on Sunday April 30, 2023 @12:53AM (#35759779)
Not necessarily. The two times in my life when we had week long power outages, the root cause was an ice storm that brought down trees onto power lines. The ice only lasted a couple days but the damage took longer to repair. Roads were cleared within a couple days. If you live in a remote enough place where your road won’t be cleared shortly after the storm, you need to have a backup plan that doesn’t rely on any outside services.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by amrocha on Sunday April 30, 2023 @02:01PM (#35764981)
If you live in a remote enough place that you need your own backup plan then I would think only having to think about electricity would make things easier
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by hn_throwaway_99 on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:42PM (#35756395)
I'm guessing (maybe hoping?) that the downvotes are for the seemingly overly apocalyptic tone of your post.

But FWIW, as someone who is from Texas who lost power for 5 days during Uri and nearly a week for the latest freeze this winter, I wholeheartedly agree. Not sure how I would have made it during Uri without gas - even with gas, we couldn't run our heater (system still needs electricity to run the fans, thermostats, etc.) but we could run a gas fireplace, which kept our house temp just high enough to keep our pipes from bursting. I still shudder from all the pics of people with icicles dripping from their ceiling fans.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by ajsnigrutin on Saturday April 29, 2023 @03:54PM (#35756535)
I mean... it's a power outage, those happen and sometimes last a long time.

In my country, we had a strange mix of humid air hitting a cold air front, so one side of the country had rain, the other had snowfall, and in between you had frozen rain...

The result? This: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2Gr_RKN4Os (ignore the weird music).

This is what the power lines looked like: https://www.postojna.si/Datoteke/Slike/Novice/123958/l_12395...

Was it a problem? Sure. But not a huge once, since everyone in the rural area was familiar with power issues even from the yugoslav era, wood furnaces are still common, even in houses with central heating (most nowadays), and well.. the country of ~2mio pop. has ~162k voulonteer firefighters, and fallen trees were removed, roads were cleared, and due to a lot of shitty wood, the toilet paper was cheap :)

Now we're looking at this (article here), and germany banning gas, oil and wood heating, and many other countries following, and even a localized event or just some operator fuckup can cause a huge catastrophy. (also, I might have a slight bias, since I know how the infrastructure works and many people who operate it, and it's a miracly we don't have more outages.... same for the internet itself... the core of the internet is based on routers saying "This is me, i own this IP block, just send me the traffic" and all the other routers believing it and doing what it's said... so yeah)

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by seanmcdirmid on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:44PM (#35756974)
We lost electricity due to an ice storm for a couple of weeks when I was a kid in Mississippi. No natural gas at all, but we bought propane heaters to get through it.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by rainsford on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:47PM (#35757003)
I get the argument, but to me it seems overly myopic. Our current electrical grid isn't alien technology we're just stuck with. If it's so bad we can't realistically rely on it to heat our homes or cook our food, maybe we should work on making it better, and in the process have all the other benefits of a reliable grid. The recent Texas outage is a perfect example. It was incredibly rare weather, but my understanding is that a lot of the problems could have been significantly mitigated with some investment in improving infrastructure. Again totally understand the concern, but having to keep gas around forever because we can't be bothered to fix our grid seems like not a great long-term solution compared to fixing the underlying issue.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by mardifoufs on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:55PM (#35757092)
To be fair, here in Québec I lost power for 4 days not even 3 weeks ago. So did 1 million people in Montréal (!). The only reason it wasn't catastrophic was that the weather was exceptionally merciful (if we ignore the freezing rains that caused the outages in the first place). We used our wood stove a lot (not legal in Montreal itself but still is in most areas around it) even with warmer temperatures and the stove honestly saved our Ramadan meals lol.

I guess it depends on where you live! But to me it's certainly iffy to ask people to just be ok with being helpless if unpredictable stuff happens.

Two decades and a half ago, the Quebec grid was completely fubar* for the most part of January due to freezing rains too so it's not super uncommon.

*worse than Texas 2 years ago as the electricity infrastructure physically collapsed, literally.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by nonethewiser on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:06PM (#35757195)
Power going out isn’t apocalyptic.

I’m not saying the power going out is no big deal. I’m saying he’s not being overly dramatic.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by retrac on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:25PM (#35757352)
Some form of backup heat is considered rather essential in many parts of Canada, including in suburban detached homes. A small fireplace-style natural gas burner that doesn't need electricity is very common -- I think about 1 in 4 homes have one? A significant proportion further have something else, like a wood stove, or bottled gas.

When the entire power goes down for an extended period, people can and do freeze, or suffer the effects of poisoning or fire, from less safe forms of heat used out of desperation. (BBQ grill or wood/trash fire indoors, etc.) The Quebec/New England region grid collapse during the 1998 ice storm was particularly bad with dozens dead. Certainly an atypical event, but many do plan for that eventuality in some way, whether by having backup heat or hopefully knowing someone who does.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by gwbas1c on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:44PM (#35756987)
> If you use gas and your neighbours use electricity, and there's suddenly a power outage

I got solar, a powerwall, and a wood stove.

(I also have a gas stove, but I wish I put the money into buying an extra powerwall.)

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by 8note on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:49PM (#35757029)
An argument for backups is an argument for backups, rather than an argument for gas stoves.

Gas systems could make a backup, but don't unless they're designed to, and even if they do, you're gonna have a cheaper time installing just the one system than multiple. A generator, or a community generator with rollover practice is the right answer.

You don't see hospitals making every other room gas so they can survive a power outage. Instead, they have a generator

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by UncleMeat on Saturday April 29, 2023 @04:55PM (#35757097)
My gas furnace won't run if there's no power because it uses various electrical systems for safety controls. I am not convinced that "we'll have it if we lose power" is actually a meaningful part of the public's reasoning for purchasing gas furnaces.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by bluGill on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:05PM (#35757187)
A cheap inverter from a car battery will run any gas furnace
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by Zak on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:09PM (#35757227)
A surprising number of gas stoves do not work without electrical power. It's supposedly for safety reasons because a user might leave the gas on after the electronic igniter fails to fire. Of course, it's possible for a sufficiently incompetent user to turn the knob past the light position and achieve the same result when it does have electrical power, so this feature strikes me as nonsensical.

I had an annoying experience with this during a multi-day outage in Alaska last year. We did have other options including a generator, but I'm not a fan of being patronized by an appliance.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by ajsnigrutin on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:32PM (#35757417)
Why is that a feature? ...interesting :) Our stoves here usually have some heat-based protection, where you have to hold the knob pressed in until a tiny rod heats up (usually 2, 3 seconds) and after that you can release it and the gas will stay on. Without power, you just need a ligher (or anything releasing a spark) to ignite the gas. Also, the default configuration for gas stoves is 3x gas cooktop + 1x electric, so most people are covered in both cases.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by Zak on Saturday April 29, 2023 @08:15PM (#35758568)
I've used the design you're describing with a heat-based valve, and it's definitely superior. I've never seen a cooktop with both gas and electric - is this redundancy in case one service or the other is interrupted?
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by ajsnigrutin on Saturday April 29, 2023 @09:26PM (#35758900)
I have no idea what the reasoning behind it was then, but it was a standard carried over from yugoslav times (usually 3 gas + 1 electric or 2+2) :) So yeah, could be redundancy...

https://i.imgur.com/rHDaZxm.png <- something like this was standard, also back in the time the colors were browner ( eg. https://i.imgur.com/RJkq5GK.png ) :)

The modern variants look more like this: https://i.imgur.com/iJvKQjy.png or with inductive heat instead of resistive: https://i.imgur.com/BOetXJz.png

I remember only one gas outage (some repair work done somewhere and they closed the valves) but there were quite a few power outages, where you had to use a lighter.

Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by amalcon on Saturday April 29, 2023 @05:42PM (#35757515)
I have a propane camping stove (a slightly modernized version of the classic Coleman model). This is the main reason why. They aren't that expensive, and you can also take it camping or set it up near your outdoor grill to prepare a side.
Re:New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Bui... by theshrike79 on Monday May 01, 2023 @03:10AM (#35769882)
Then I can use the V2L capability in my EV and run a microwave on it for example, while also running the ground source heat pump.

I also have a gas grill and a camping stove for emergencies (and for camping).