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Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by rtpg on Thursday April 27, 2023 @08:06PM (#35736034)
There are a bunch of surveys on people not having kids. It’s economics. Money (or lack thereof) is the thing.

One might think “well city dwellers have more money!” But a huge issue is housing. There’s a supply issue and a cost issue there that simply is a non-issue for rural populations.

Searching for some genetic reason is one thing, but “we cant make a comfortable living space for future children” is just a major point that comes up in surveys and just makes sense.

Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by WarOnPrivacy on Thursday April 27, 2023 @08:40PM (#35736265)
> It’s economics. Money (or lack thereof) is the thing.

That's a big one. My formerly inexpensive region now requires 3-4 typical incomes to keep the lights on. We're so many decades past the "One Income, One Family" ideal that even the Fed can't envision a world without everyone working at least one job.

There's a second factor. Between my parents generation and my kids generation - the amount of time required for parenting has gone up ~10 fold. We're about as close to 24/7 parenting as is (even theoretically) possible.

Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by superchroma on Thursday April 27, 2023 @08:24PM (#35736161)
People bang on and on about the money aspect, but the reality is that the income bracket to go from just covering the bills in urban areas to being wealthy enough to be able to foster a child and not take a serious haircut on quality of life (and yes, with space and other concerns taken into account) is quite large.
Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by IG_Semmelweiss on Thursday April 27, 2023 @09:34PM (#35736577)
Do you have kids?

Because the reality is that if you did and you lived in an urban area, you are friends with many couples with kids, and no one is going past two, because they cant afford it without critical haircut to QoL.

And often this is families making 3x mean wages . with at least 1 parent working as an engineer or FAANG job.

I ask again. Are you a parent?

Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by Ancapistani on Thursday April 27, 2023 @09:43PM (#35736623)
We’re not “going past two”, but it’s not money holding us back. I’m the sole earner in my household, which consists of myself, my wife, and our two daughters. My income puts us right at 4x the mean household income for the county where we live.

My wife is already primarily a homemaker, and even with the two kids I have to move things around for work to pitch in when there are scheduling conflicts. The problem isn’t money - it’s time and energy. For us to have more children, we’d almost have to hire domestic help.

Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by IG_Semmelweiss on Thursday April 27, 2023 @09:58PM (#35736717)
Correct. And that happens to be our situation too.

isnt that dependent on money?

Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by medvezhenok on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:13PM (#35737093)
It's dependent on expectations. You could raise kids in the past with much less money + time because they would be expected to entertain themselves (and probably would spend a bunch of time outdoors getting into trouble). Today you would get CPS called on you for that.

Given current expectations for raising kids, yes, it's a time+money sink. Then again, I think America over-parents on the whole, so altering expectations can also help.

Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by IG_Semmelweiss on Friday April 28, 2023 @07:34PM (#35748475)
You are making my point. Parent did that too.

The latter said "almost as if we would need domestic help" its exactly a factor of money.

Lets not kid ourselves. There is no education that is happening in the timesink that is food prep, showering, securing and hustling kids to and fro activities. Rural kids are far more independent, better prepared and more likely to eat better than their urban counterparts. The elders, in fact, help each other and the younger ones,and therefore make the large family a force multiplier in the rural areas.

Add on top of that the lack of cheap living space for a large family, and its a death sentence for the large family in an urban setting.

You cannot multiply a driver. Or a car. Or another room for a 3rd child. And if you could scale it up, it comes down to money anyway.

Time is money. A large family is just more money.

Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by superchroma on Monday May 01, 2023 @03:07AM (#35769870)
I think we agree?
Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by chaostheory on Thursday April 27, 2023 @08:43PM (#35736287)
It’s not economics

https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-fam...

The number of children goes down as income increases.

There is a biological component

Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by chaostheory on Friday April 28, 2023 @10:32AM (#35741720)
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Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by strken on Thursday April 27, 2023 @08:52PM (#35736344)
I think it's not having enough money to meet current lifestyle expectations. It's technically possible to raise a family of nine in a two-bedroom dwelling with three beds, and one of my great-grandparents grew up in such a household, but to live like that today would be considered child abuse.

People prefer to view this as a lack of money due to increasing cost of living or stagnant wages because those are more comfortable to talk about, but an increasing standard of living raises the awkward question of whether it's even a good thing to have more (or any) kids.

Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by Meekro on Thursday April 27, 2023 @09:01PM (#35736382)
Some of the worst places to live in the world (Somalia, Sudan, Gaza, etc) also have the highest birth rates. I'm sure the lack of birth control contributes here, but I still feel like we're missing a piece of the puzzle. In any case, "comfortable living space" is something only wealthy first-world couples think about before having children -- and those couples usually end up childless whether or not they have that space.

Fertility rates in most developed countries go down, not up, as couples get richer. Poor couples think they'd have more kids if only they had more money, a bigger house, access to good schools, etc. but the couples who have all that stuff are actually having fewer kids than anyone else.

Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by chaostheory on Thursday April 27, 2023 @10:24PM (#35736855)
We have more pieces of the puzzle now. The more industrialized a nation, the less the fertility. Even developing nations are no longer safe. Every area but central Africa is affected now that includes China and India. We are living in a slow and boring version of Children of Men, except it’s men who are infertile and not women
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Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by chaostheory on Friday April 28, 2023 @07:03PM (#35748250)
Your theory would work if this didn’t occur in paternalist societies in developing countries where the sexual revolution didn’t occur. Yet it’s still happening there.

The root cause isn’t socioeconomic

Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by denkmoon on Thursday April 27, 2023 @09:02PM (#35736394)
I earn decent money and I can't imagine trying to raise a family in the shoebox I live in. I would have to sacrifice a significant portion of my monthly savings to afford a better living situation (ie. essentially condemned to being a lifelong renter), and that's before considering the other costs of raising a family.
Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by pclmulqdq on Thursday April 27, 2023 @09:08PM (#35736422)
Is there a reason that you don't leave if that is how you feel about it? As a software engineer who left a big city, even though you may end up with a 50% pay cut, your purchasing power actually increases significantly. A lot of people end up stuck in a situation like this due to other factors, like family, but far more people live with this mentality without anything that really ties them to the city except fun and the perception of better economic prospects.
Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by denkmoon on Friday April 28, 2023 @12:21AM (#35737451)
Full time working from home doesn't work for me/my head, I need to go into the office a few days a week. I don't think I would thrive in a fully remote job, and I haven't seen a single job listing for a software developer outside of the major cities. In Australia for context.

I also genuinely like living in the city, not for the "fun" but because of the convenience. Everything I need is within a few minutes walk of my apartment.

Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by rtpg on Friday April 28, 2023 @08:01AM (#35740227)
No amount of personal wealth in the countryside makes it so that I can walk to the supermarket and to a couple other places. Urban life is appealing to many for reasons beyond fun, and for a lot of reasons that aren’t solvable in rural areas by purchasing power.

To your point I think there’s a lot of that which is more manageable than expected, and there are a lot of spectrums to navigate there

Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by red-iron-pine on Friday April 28, 2023 @02:42PM (#35745374)
I think about this a lot, as I live in a big city, and it's a hard sell. I can walk to everything I need, and am an easy train / uber / car ride to anything that walking isn't practical for (e.g. big grocery store run).

My parents live in rural WA, and it's about a 30 min drive into town for, like, anything. Go to the gym? drive. Groceries? drive. Meet friends for coffee or beer? Drive. I was there for Christmas, and even a light snow made getting into town dicey. Meanwhile, it snows heavily where I live and outside of bitter winds necessitating a beard it never stopped me from getting anywhere.

Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by bluGill on Thursday April 27, 2023 @09:20PM (#35736490)
Go to your local historical farm and look at what people used to live in. Or find a documentary on YouTube about any area where people still live in mud huts, tents, or other tiny houses. They manage to raise kids .
Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by medvezhenok on Thursday April 27, 2023 @11:09PM (#35737075)
You would be reported to CPS for doing some of the things that parents used to let their kids do in the 1950s. The standard for raising children has changed quite a bit.

National statistics indicate that 1 in 3 children will have CPS called on them during their childhood.

Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by denkmoon on Friday April 28, 2023 @12:24AM (#35737461)
Just "managing" is not particularly inspiring. I can have a very comfortable life without raising a family, or I can have a life of "managing to raise kids".
Re:Sperm counts are declining. Scientists have pinpointed th... by midoridensha on Friday April 28, 2023 @03:41AM (#35738597)
That's exactly the conundrum, and why birth rates are so low.

In the past, people were happy to (or did it because of social expectations or lack of contraceptives) "manage to raise kids".

Nowadays, people expect and even demand a "very comfortable life". The two aren't really compatible for most people except very high earners.