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Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by achr2 on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @11:23AM (#35715159)
Maybe I am misinterpreting the tone, but this is an incongruous belief. Nothing about a chaotic system precludes a *trend* in that system. I think it is quite objectively clear that while extremely chaotic, the trend of recent human impact on the earth is an equally extreme destruction of natural habitats.
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by miroljub on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @11:41AM (#35715522)
Our planet is both chaotic and stable, depending on the timescale we are looking at.

Chaotic on the long timescale, but pretty stable given the much shorter timescale of known human history.

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by nradov on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @12:55PM (#35716723)
If you believe that then I think you haven't spent much time out in nature. Some wild species populations boom and crash in chaotic ways even in areas that haven't been impacted much by humans. Nature is far from stable on any time scale longer than a year.
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by HPsquared on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @03:03PM (#35718449)
Doesn't it all average out over time though? I suppose things like erosion do cause permanent changes but other than that?
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by lproven on Thursday April 27, 2023 @05:32AM (#35725503)
ISTM like you haven't fully grasped the fractal nature of, well, nature.

At one scale, it's chaos. 1 or 2 scales up or down (in time or in space) it's stable. It's like that all the way up and all the way down.

Oh, and not only are the scale levels not just spacial or temporal but both, but the number of levels is itself non integer.

But the point is that even chaotic systems often display order if you find the right place or perspective to stand and look.

You can't say "it's not stable". Not ever. Rocks aren't stable over aeons. Galaxies aren't. Protons aren't if you wait long enough.

But it is often possible to measure the rates of change and of complexity and say, look, given greater levels of complexity, then lower rates of change will probably hold...

Even given a famine or a plague that's currently devastating one region.

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by throwaway173738 on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @11:34AM (#35715394)
Yeah chaotic systems are merely characterized by their extreme sensitivity to initial conditions for a particular long term outcome. All systems trend when modeled mathematically. It’s just difficult to know where a chaotic system will be at any point in time because of how hard it is to establish initial conditions.

One way you can play with a real chaotic system is to build one of the circuits in jc sprott’s papers and vary the control variable. You’ll see at some values of your control an “orderly” progression of the response variables, and at others a difficult to predict progression.

https://scholar.google.com/citations?view_op=view_citation&h...

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by tsunamifury on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @11:34AM (#35715399)
Trends are chaotic too and hit inflection points that are hard to predict. He goes deep on the pred/prey model from Isle Royal where trends go for a bit then inflect. Tons of wolves then tons of elk then low populations of both then high of both. There are trends but no hyper static state or relationship even.
Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by rektide on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @11:42AM (#35715544)
AWOBMOLG was more about mythologization of tech as oracular & all powerful, leading us to think that we can handle anything. Techno-utopianism.

A lot of the series is about the belief that we could, with technologies predictive powers & neoliberal market ethos... And how it doesn't pan out. We have "New Economies" greatly bloom in the world. And about how instead we got the 1997 Asian financial crisis. We thought we were taming market complexity (via in part neoliberalism weirdly) but turns out not so much. We have the rise of cybernetic thinking & Limits of Growth (& it's limitations in assuming we cannot change human behavior).

"Sure everything is trending towards shit, but we're humans, we can definitely go create some genius machine that will fix this, right"

Curtis rarely comes out and makes broad conclusions, but the watcher is definitely left with impression of absurd hubris & folly & chaos-triumphant, in AWOBMOLG and in much else of Curtis's excellent excellent catalog of contemporary history documentaries.

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by denton-scratch on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @12:57PM (#35716760)
> Curtis rarely comes out and makes broad conclusions

Indeed; his films (and their titles!) are oblique and suggestive. They are about politics, but it's very hard to discern his own political posture clearly. I wonder what kind of a man he would be to meet.

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by rektide on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:02PM (#35719207)
He's still a bit reserved somewhat in interviews but they are fun to watch.

Just my take, but I think the core concept is really that there is no one actually genuinely leading, no one left with a compelling believable vision in any position of power, and that total power vacuum keeps letting mad scenes play out across history.

The need for hope, to show a willingness to go in authentically good direction at scale, is a fuel that powers the public spirit, and we keep suffering long eras where it's simply unavailable.

Re:Long Before Trees Overtook the Land, Earth Was Covered by... by nradov on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @12:58PM (#35716784)
Humans have destroyed natural habitats, but at the same time some species have come to thrive in the unnatural habitats we have created. Think of pigeons, rats, cockroaches, coyotes, racoons, etc. Life expands to fill every niche where enough energy is available for survival.