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Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by wila on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:09AM (#35710753)
Good coding practices don't change much, so yes it is still relevant.
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by hardware2win on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:20AM (#35710821)
The "Good practices^TM" is a giant bag of mix of good practices, "clean coders", software evangelists and architect's fantasies being collected over various technologies
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by it_citizen on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:13AM (#35710783)
Agree, but sometimes looking for recent books with the same underlying message is better than going through the classic.

I read the mythical man month recently and the examples often involving OS/360 development are brutally outdated. I couldn't relate and I had to force myself to finish.

Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by RheingoldRiver on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:19AM (#35710814)
The Mythical Man Month is also super anti-feminist, which I wish people talked about more if they're going to recommend that book.
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by blowski on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:39AM (#35710949)
* * *
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by racktash on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:22AM (#35710835)
It's been about ten years since I read it, but I don't remember anything particularly "anti-feminist" in it. Or anything political at all. I'm curious why you think so.
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by hermitcrab on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:23AM (#35710846)
I don't remember that. But I read it a long time ago. Can you supply a quote to back this up?
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by hermitcrab on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:27AM (#35710870)
I found this: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/1461289590

"A team of two, with one leader , is often the best use of minds. [Note God's plan for marriage.]'"

That is only sexist if he is saying that the man is naturally the leader. Did he say that?

Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by actionfromafar on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:36AM (#35710930)
At the time, it must have been the straight reading, right?
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by hermitcrab on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:53AM (#35711048)
That is quite an assumption. But I don't know the full context of the quote.
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by 239847823971 on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @05:05AM (#35711129)
The author is only forwarding what the Bible says. So your beef is not with the author, but actually with all religions.
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by drewcoo on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:39AM (#35710941)
The book is at least a decade or two out of political fashion.

For thousands of years, certainly in European culture, the default human entity, when not specified, was masculine in gender. By which I mean grammatical gender, not the current politically vogue meaning of "gender."

We don't need to disregard thousands of years of knowledge because the authors were unaware of what would be PC in their future. That would be puerile. ("Childish," from the Latin word for "boy.")

Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by eesmith on Thursday April 27, 2023 @05:14AM (#35725335)
> "Childish," from the Latin word for "boy."

I think you mean "puerile", not "childish."

"Child" comes from Proto-Germanic. https://www.etymonline.com/word/child says "no certain cognates outside Germanic".

The Latin word for boy is "puer": "a boy, lad (typically between ages 7-14 but could be younger) (older than an infans but younger than an adulescens)" - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/puer#Noun_4 .

Puerile comes "from Latin puerilis "boyish; childish,"'- https://www.etymonline.com/word/puerile .

Grammatic gender doesn't always match natural gender even in the European languages. "Wīfman" means "woman" in Old English but is grammatically masculine. The Old English "mann" meant generally "person". https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mann#Old_English making "wīfmann" a female person and "wæpnedmann" a male person, though "wer" was the usual word for "adult male" (remaining in "weregild" and "werewolf").

In modern Swedish there is no masculine gender, and "man" can mean either "an adult male" or "a person". Consider "Hysterektomi ... kan också göras om man har cellförändringar eller cancer i livmodern." which in English is "A hysterectomy can also be done if one has cell changes or cancer in the uterus." (from https://www.1177.se/behandling--hjalpmedel/operationer/opera... ).

The Swedish "man" in that sentence translates directly as "one" in English, not "adult male", though usually in English we would write "you" as a sort of third-person pronoun, over the more formal "one" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You#Third_person_usage , even when we don't know if the reader has a uterus.

Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by RheingoldRiver on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:53AM (#35711049)
I don't have my copy with me so I can't supply an exact quote right now. The part that really stuck out was about companies relocating though. First, there was absolutely no possibility that women would be working, and iirc the primary reason that a company might not want to relocate was that a wife might complain her husband had to move, thus inconveniencing his boss. Something like this.
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by pydry on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:21AM (#35710826)
It is not.
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by raincole on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:22AM (#35710836)
lmao
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by marginalia_nu on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:48AM (#35711014)
The book's nearly 50 years old. Most books not written very recently are not going to adhere to contemporary values and mores. If you're not willing to offer generosity when reading them and pick the useful part and discard the parts that haven't aged well, then you're going to miss out on a lot of very worthwhile reading.
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by RheingoldRiver on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:57AM (#35711079)
That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is: Why do we not *update* these books? This gets back into the question of copyright of course.
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by gadders on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @05:10AM (#35711171)
Sensitivity Readers haven't been universally popular.

[edit] With Economist link: https://www.economist.com/britain/2023/03/23/editing-roald-d...

Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by marginalia_nu on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @05:03AM (#35711113)
Because then we lose any sense of historical context.

Old books at their essence lets us talk to people from the past. We won't always like what they have to say, but they will speak about themselves and highlight how we've changed. If we can't understand where we came from, then we can't hope to understand how we got where we are.

Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by RheingoldRiver on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @05:14AM (#35711199)
What? Tons of books get new editions. It happens constantly. For example, Strunk & White [0] has been updated in 1918, 1959, 1999, and 2009. Authors release different versions of their own books. I just wrote a review of a book [1] that had a 2nd edition released in 2022 after the first edition was released in 2014. J.R.R. Tolkein retconned The Hobbit after publication of Lord of the Rings. [2] (I realize this isn't really the same thing but I wanted to give an example in fiction)

Anyway, point is, tons of books are changed after publication. I don't see why The Mythical Man Month shouldn't be; the technology is out of date and the gender issues are out of date.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Style

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Everybody-Writes-Improved-Go-Ridiculo...

[2] https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2012/12/13/how-jrr-tolkien-pull...

Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by marginalia_nu on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @05:20AM (#35711230)
Technical revisions, sure. At the same time books re-published to align with the political zeitgeist rarely tend to age particularly well.
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by eesmith on Thursday April 27, 2023 @04:12AM (#35724796)
I don't think there's much evidence to support your viewpoint.

Most books don't age well.

I tried to read Baum's "The Woggle-Bug Book" a few years ago, and found its humor, rooted in old ethnic stereotypes, totally un-enjoyable. It did not age well.

While the Hardy Boy books I enjoyed as a kid wouldn't have been so wildly popular had they kept the original text. ("From 1959 to 1973, the first 38 books were extensively revised, largely to remove depictions of racial stereotypes" says Wikipedia.)

One of the most popular Agatha Christie novels is "And Then There Were None". That was "re-published to align with the political zeitgeist" so much they even changed the title and the name of the island. Most people have read the re-aligned version, not the original version.

And as I learned recently, "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" was "re-published to align with the political zeitgeist" in the 1970s, due to complaints by the NAACP and others that the Oompa-Loompas were African Pygmies. The re-write made them white, and the movie made them orange. The re-aligned version has outsold the original version.

Also in the 1970s, Geisel ("Dr. Seuss") edited "And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street" to change how it describes and portrays a Chinese man. That book continues to be sold.

Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People" was revised in the 1981 edition to reflect the new feminist zeitgeist. For examples, "insurance man" was replaced with "insurance agent", and "leadership gravitates to the man who can talk" changed to "leadership gravitates to the person who can talk". It also dropped the section on marriage. ("Never get married until you have kissed the Blarney Stone. Praising a woman before marriage is a matter of inclination. But praising one after you marry her is a matter of necessity — and personal safety.") The preface to the 1981 edition points out how "Carnegie himself was a tireless reviser of his own work during his lifetime" and would have made changes because he was "sensitive to the changing currents of present-day life".

While not "tons of books", the fact that I - with little knowledge of book publishing history - can point to several counter-examples, suggests that there are a lot more popular books out there which were updated to the modern zeitgeist.

Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by Mike_12345 on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @02:39PM (#35718156)
You people are batshit crazy. The religion of SJW is Orwellian. Just write a new book and leave the old books as they are. Stop dictating and thought policing.
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by Arisaka1 on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @05:05AM (#35711134)
Because the human brain has the capacity to frame specific pieces of work in their time periods, understand the discrepancies between past and present and work around it.

I would also like to offer an additional counterpoint: Leaving work intact will, not only preserve the work "as is", but also contribute to future historians the true sociological impression that is aptly accurate for their time period.

Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by Mike_12345 on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @05:03AM (#35711118)
The Mythical Man Month is super transphobic, racist, sexist, misogynist, and Islamophobic. We should burn every copy of that book.
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by 239847823971 on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @05:09AM (#35711161)
What about the Bible?
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by Mike_12345 on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @05:11AM (#35711179)
It's even worse than The Bible.
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by pipes on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @05:08AM (#35711149)
I haven't read it, but what does it say about feminism?
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by warrenm on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @10:19AM (#35714062)
I find it surprising that you thought Mythical Man Month was "brutally outdated"

Bentley's Programming Pearls, by that standard, is also "brutally outdated" - but the point of the book is not "how do I make this work in early 1980s technology"

The point of PP is "ask the right question"

The point of MMM is "add resources when necessary; be brutally minimalistic about how many resources are added"

Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by it_citizen on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @10:37AM (#35714314)
I said the examples are brutally outdated, not the message. The book is filled with acronyms and names I didn’t know because they are 60 years old.

I’d rather read a 2023 version if I could.

Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by warrenm on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @11:24AM (#35715189)
The acronyms and names are basically irrelevant to the point, though :)

If anything, having "outdated" acronyms and names may actually make the message stronger - because you don't need to be distracted by what they "are", you can just accept they exist[ed] :)

Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by it_citizen on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @11:48AM (#35715651)
I get that it is a classic but arguing that understanding less words and examples in a book makes the message stronger is a tough sell.
Re:Ask HN: Is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell still a rec... by muzani on Wednesday April 26, 2023 @04:52AM (#35711041)
"Clean code" does change a lot based on IDEs and programming language. For example, we don't use variable names like mIntScore anymore. And we're finding that Javadocs might add little value and go out of date.

Architecture can change quite a bit too - all the async webs make things difficult. Most of the bug reports we get on mobile are not test coverable. e.g. some jankiness when going back to a page, or something like liking a post three levels down and finding that your like was not registered when you go back towards the home screen. We had some bugs like an OS modding text animations, making the text invisible in very niche situations. Then you have combos of ltr and rtl languages and layouts. Adding test coverage can be 4x the effort of writing the code once with no tests, not to mention the architecture for test support making things exponentially more complex.

Maybe we have to rethink what complete code really means.