News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by seanhunter on Monday April 24, 2023 @08:52AM (#35687043)
The UK has threatened this on and off for a while. I recall around 2000 they proposed a bill which would have forced everyone who wanted to use encryption to escrow a key with the government. I used to watch some TV in those days and the UK programme "NewsNight" had a discussion about it. There proposing the idea was some poor government flunky. There explaining the flaws in the idea was Whitfield Diffie[1].

Diffie just started by explaining that cybersecurity is all about securing some asset from threats such that the cost of attack was too great given the value of the asset. How do you protect the store that has all the cryptographic keys in the entire United Kingdom? It would be essentially infinitely valuable as a cyberattack target. Government dude was totally out of his depth and the bill was eventually dropped.

[1] Turing award winner and the Diffie in Diffie-Hellman. Fair to say he's a guy who knows a thing or two about cryptography.

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by quickthrower2 on Monday April 24, 2023 @09:05AM (#35687168)
Ironic considering we have things now like gmail, and god knows how many services you could get access to via password resets if you could get access to all the emails. Or CI systems for another example
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by traceroute66 on Monday April 24, 2023 @09:36AM (#35687467)
> UK programme "NewsNight" had a discussion about it. There proposing the idea was some poor government flunky. There explaining the flaws in the idea was Whitfield Diffie

Aah, the good old days when the BBC was un-biased.

These days you would get a government flunky, and on the other side of the table a pro-government flunky from a lobbying outfit whose real accreditation has been carefully omitted by the BBC and they have been instead been given some generic independent sounding job title.

I'm not joking! BBC Radio 4 famously recently did a "Brexit anniversary programme". Three people in the studio, the presenter and two guests. The two guests were .... Theresa Villiers and Daniel Hannan, two hardcore Brexteers who, of course, spent the entire interview session fighting completely unchallenged over who could give the most sycophantic sunlit-uplands view of Brexit.

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by ben_w on Monday April 24, 2023 @10:02AM (#35687785)
The BBC certainly has a lot of problems with regard to actual independence, but I would like to *ahem* provide some balance by pointing to the satirical popular news quiz "Have I Got News For You" which spent the early part of the Blair years having to beep out certain references to Peter Mandelson — the Dominic Cummings of his era — that only ended with (from memory):

???: "Peter Mandelson is a hom… owner"

Regular guest: "Why can't gay people own homes?"

Host: "Well, new Director General, let's see if that goes out."

At the time, and I'm pleasantly amazed how fast this has changed, being gay and in charge was still mildly scandalous in the eyes of tabloids, and that was about the same time the age of consent was equalised.

However such (entirely valid) reasons for respecting privacy should be for all, but as far as I remember Mandelson was the only person who got to keep that particular secret.

Conversely, right after the referendum someone said the BBC should play "God Save The Queen" at the end of the day's programming in concordance with the departure from the EU, and Newsnight responded with this, which is still up on their official channel: https://youtu.be/WwsQ_5Wm4oo

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by traceroute66 on Monday April 24, 2023 @11:04AM (#35688511)
> Blair years having to beep out certain references to Peter Mandelson — the Dominic Cummings of his era

I thought Alastair Campbell was Blair's Cummings ?

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by WediBlino on Monday April 24, 2023 @11:20AM (#35688719)
Cambell was Blair's Tucker.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by giobox on Monday April 24, 2023 @12:43PM (#35689973)
Campbell is IMO the more appropriate comparison too - Mandelson was an elected MP and later a Lord during Blair/Brown years, he wasn't a SPAD for hire like Cummings or Campbell. That said, the three of them worked very closely together - Blair, Mandelson and Campbell.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by ben_w on Monday April 24, 2023 @02:56PM (#35691616)
I'm thinking mainly of the perception of each was that they were a dislikable Machiavellian power behind the throne: https://youtu.be/IWKBe7L50VA
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by AlecSchueler on Monday April 24, 2023 @11:22AM (#35688748)
That last example would mean more if The Sex Pistols hadn't long ago been thoroughly absorbed into and reapprpriated by the establishment.

Imagine if they'd shared a contemporary work calling the monarchy a fascist regime.

As it stands it was just a cute joke, and in a way only served to reinforce the soft power of parliament by entering into a playful discourse with it.

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by rightbyte on Monday April 24, 2023 @12:11PM (#35689479)
Like how Status Quo made some rehashed pro-war "In the army now" army recruitment video ...
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by petre on Monday April 24, 2023 @04:36PM (#35692864)
I'd like to see them try rehashing In the Navy by the Village People into pro war propaganda.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by ndsipa_pomu on Monday April 24, 2023 @12:39PM (#35689912)
The BBC don't seem to care about being impartial when it comes to the royalty. They publish loads of articles about the upcoming coronation and I have yet to see any republican points of view.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by pydry on Monday April 24, 2023 @01:36PM (#35690721)
They don't care about impartiality in anything, really. Certainly not since Greg Dyke left. The management has increasingly been stuffed with people who are openly Tory.

The recent attack on Gary Lineker for not being "impartial" (not being sufficiently uncritical of Government policy) was particularly galling.

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by hgomersall on Monday April 24, 2023 @03:21PM (#35691941)
There's no such thing as impartiality. Everything has an editorial line which colours what opinions are allowed.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by ndsipa_pomu on Monday April 24, 2023 @03:28PM (#35692022)
There's degrees of bias though. The BBC has a charter that is supposed to prioritise impartiality, and yet they show strong bias in many topics.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by hgomersall on Monday April 24, 2023 @03:56PM (#35692323)
That's the point I'm making. It's like having their charter saying that pi is 3: reality is no less malleable.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by ndsipa_pomu on Monday April 24, 2023 @04:37PM (#35692887)
Well, pi is approximately 3 to a certain degree of precision. To make a bad analogy, the BBC is currently saying that pi is 4 and increasing.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by zabzonk on Monday April 24, 2023 @10:15AM (#35687948)
i worked for the BBC for several years back in the 80s, in computer services radio (basically designing and writing applications to support radio broadcasts) and it really has always been a crowd of right-wing arse lickers. the "talent" may appear to be slightly left-of-centre, but the management certainly is not.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by Karellen on Monday April 24, 2023 @10:21AM (#35687999)
> Aah, the good old days when the BBC was un-biased.

I'm curious, around when do you think that changed? And was there a specific story they reported on (or didn't report on) that really solidified the change for you?

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by traceroute66 on Monday April 24, 2023 @10:50AM (#35688349)
> I'm curious, around when do you think that changed?

The smell of change appeared more clearly in the run-up to Brexit. Certainly post-Brexit I would say it is very much evident.

> And was there a specific story they reported on (or didn't report on) that really solidified the change for you?

To be clear (as per my Radio 4 example cited above), it is not necessarily a case of "reported on / did not report on", it is frequently more a case of bias / lack of impartiality, again as nicely exemplified by my "two hardcore Brexiteers fight over Brexit" example[1].

However, I could also give you many examples of "reported on/did not report on". Perhaps one of the most well known is Lady Mone of House of Lords fame. She is/was subject to various investigations regarding supply of PPE during CoVID.

For a long time, Lady Mone's investigations were widely reported in all mainstream media (tabloids, broadsheets, other mainstream TV/Radio news ... you name the place, it was reported there).

But the BBC ? Nope. No mention on TV/Radio news, and for a long time a search for "Mone" on the BBC News website yielded exactly zero results.

Even today although you can now find a small number of mentions on the BBC website, you'll have to go looking on other mainstream sources for the actual detail.[2]

[1] https://www.thenational.scot/news/23289638.bbc-slated-insult... [2] https://www.thenational.scot/news/20107509.bbc-refuses-say-h...

EDIT TO ADD (because I can't reply to the @Veen directly)

> Leftists think it's an establishment mouthpiece run by the Tories.

Well....

I see how they could feel that way when the recently appointed BBC Chairman is a chap who appears to have more than a few ties to Boris Johnson[3].

[3] https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/378/digital-cultu...

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by AlecSchueler on Monday April 24, 2023 @11:24AM (#35688780)
Not the person you asked but I'd say there was a noticeable shift during the stewardship of Laura Kuenssberg as political editor, beginning in 2015.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by pjc50 on Monday April 24, 2023 @11:34AM (#35688938)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutton_Inquiry

Regardless of the fine detail about who knew what at what time, history has vindicated people who were skeptical about the claims being made to provoke the invasion of Iraq, and it was not right of the Blair government to attempt to suppress them.

(Mind you, the BBC has never been really able to report on the security state; see the Troubles, or the Zircon Affair)

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by Veen on Monday April 24, 2023 @10:50AM (#35688341)
It's worth pointing out that right-wingers say precisely the opposite and can produce plenty of evidence showing the BBC's left-wing bias.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by schmuelio on Monday April 24, 2023 @11:07AM (#35688545)
I think it would be more apt to call it plenty of "evidence"...
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by Veen on Monday April 24, 2023 @11:11AM (#35688599)
Yes, but it's an argument that just goes round and round forever. Conservatives think the BBC is run by a left-wing cabal. Leftists think it's an establishment mouthpiece run by the Tories. We've been having exactly the same argument since the 1960s.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by pjc50 on Monday April 24, 2023 @11:35AM (#35688954)
https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/378/digital-cultu...

The chair is a Tory. We can then quibble over "run by", but you can't ignore the significant connections at high level.

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by Veen on Monday April 24, 2023 @11:41AM (#35689035)
The Chair, DG, and other higher-ups will almost always have either Labour or Tory connections, because those are the two main political parties. You'd be hard pushed to find a suitable candidate that wasn't connected at a high level.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by vixen99 on Monday April 24, 2023 @12:54PM (#35690144)
No doubt you've dispassionately gone out of your way to assesss that evidence and after detailed examination decided it's invalid. Which would be a perfectl reasonable step to make - if that's what you did. Did you?
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by hgomersall on Monday April 24, 2023 @03:23PM (#35691957)
The problem is often reality having a left wing bias.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by Veen on Tuesday April 25, 2023 @09:04AM (#35699883)
That's a lazy, trite, and untrue cliché.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by lwhi on Monday April 24, 2023 @12:08PM (#35689446)
I'm sorry, but we'd be a hell of a lot worse off without the BBC.

For all its flaws, it does a huge amount of good. All reporting will inevitably hold a bias simply because selection of story for time scheduled news will _always_ involve excluding other news items.

The amount of criticism the BBC recieves is significant, and it's gone up a lot more recently.

I think it's a reflection of the incumbent gov more than the state of the organisation. There are strong forces working against the BBCs more egalitarian aims.

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by psychphysic on Monday April 24, 2023 @12:25PM (#35689725)
No one has a problem with the BBC existing. Just that it is de facto a state funded and government affiliated news agency.

One of the funnier stories supporting this is that MI5 had to ask the BBC to stop sending everyone for vetting because it was unnecessary!

> when MI5 suggested scaling back the number of jobs subject to vetting, the BBC argued against such a move.

Something the BBC lied about repeatedly and only admitted years after other news agencies broke the story.

Now it's run by the guy who was the PMs boss and who organised a loan for the last PM. And people claims it's totally independent? These sound like stories about RT.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-43754737

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by timthorn on Monday April 24, 2023 @09:06AM (#35687180)
That was perhaps just the UK response to the Clipper Chip.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by darrenf on Monday April 24, 2023 @09:45AM (#35687565)
> the bill was eventually dropped

If you're referring to the Electronic Communications Bill, it did indeed become an act. And in fact it contained an explicit section prohibiting the imposition of escrow (which has not been removed by any subsequent amendments): https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/7/part/III

14 Prohibition on key escrow requirements

(1) Subject to subsection (2), nothing in this Act shall confer any power on any Minister of the Crown, on the Scottish Ministers, on the National Assembly for Wales or on any person appointed under section 3—

(a) by conditions of an approval under Part I, or

(b) by any regulations or order under this Act,

to impose a requirement on any person to deposit a key for electronic data with another person.

What's more, you can read a transcript of a parliamentary debate about escrow where all sides were keen to ensure it was clearly not part of the final text https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2000-01-25a.174.1

The debate on key escrow raged for some time. Foremost among the original proponents of key escrow was my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr. Taylor). However, the debate has moved on—as has my hon. Friend, who has changed his mind because we have learned much more about the matter. All credit is due to him for that.

It was thus crucial that key escrow should not be included in the Bill. There would be no power for the Government, or for some agency, to demand that the key—as between public and private—for the de-encryption of material could be deposited with a third party. However, we were concerned that key escrow might be introduced through the back door.

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by InCityDreams on Monday April 24, 2023 @11:13AM (#35688626)
>Friend, who has changed his mind because we have learned much more about the matter. All credit is due to him for that.

Complimented for being a rational human being, no less.

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by pjc50 on Monday April 24, 2023 @11:24AM (#35688781)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Taylor_(British_politician... : appears to be the now almost vanished old school type of conservative. Member of the Worshipful Company of Information Technologists, so at least knows some tech people. Europhile, to the extent of quitting the party over Brexit. Pro-space exploration. Anti-Iraq-war.

No wonder he quit.

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by darrenf on Monday April 24, 2023 @11:31AM (#35688889)
And the people of Esher & Walton are now served by ... Dominic Raab.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by ndsipa_pomu on Monday April 24, 2023 @12:36PM (#35689865)
I wonder how he treats his constituents. Hopefully better than civil servants.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by AlecSchueler on Monday April 24, 2023 @11:16AM (#35688683)
Always good to reinforce positive behaviour especially amongst legislators.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by IshKebab on Monday April 24, 2023 @11:25AM (#35688797)
Surely you are aware how rare it is for people to admit that they are wrong? If you take social consequences into account it's not even irrational for people to resist having to do that. Especially for politicians! So yes, he should be given credit for it.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by saurik on Monday April 24, 2023 @12:00PM (#35689303)
That the key escrow portion was finally dropped is not somehow incompatible with it being there in the first place. Maybe your comment is just trying to clarify the timeline--due to a pedantic complaint that if a bill is changed to not do something it isn't the entire bill that was "dropped"--but it frankly is coming off like some kind of attempt to gaslight the thread down a path of "this was never a concern and no one was suggesting this".

https://www.telepolis.de/features/UK-Electronic-Communicatio...

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by darrenf on Monday April 24, 2023 @12:53PM (#35690122)
> frankly is coming off like some kind of attempt to gaslight the thread down a path of "this was never a concern and no one was suggesting this".

I mean, I literally quoted an MP saying "The debate on key escrow raged for some time" and linked to the full debate in which it was spoken; hardly a sensible "escrow was never a concern" move. The Telepolis link backs this up with detail - escrow was proposed by the Tories, pledged against yet initially retained by Labour, and eventually withdrawn.

The comment to which I was replying said that an entire bill was junked. I think it's much more interesting, and indeed important, to note that in actuality the act passed with an explicit prohibition of escrow. If the bill was dropped then it would likely have been a case of the govt going, oh, damn, we got embarrassed - kill it for now, we'll come back to it later, but bury it under something else. But no - there was public debate, and democracy functioned as we would all hope - a terrible idea was proposed, defeated, and legislated against.

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by seanhunter on Monday April 24, 2023 @01:32PM (#35690671)
That's the one. Really cool you unearthed taht. Thanks.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by JTbane on Monday April 24, 2023 @10:04AM (#35687820)
>How do you protect the store that has all the cryptographic keys in the entire United Kingdom?

Also I don't trust any government not to mishandle crypto keys, so backdoored encryption = broken encryption

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by chacham15 on Monday April 24, 2023 @10:15AM (#35687941)
> It would be essentially infinitely valuable as a cyberattack target.

While I understand what you mean, there are already keys which are "infinitely valuable": root CA keys. If you have those, you can essentially impersonate anyone. Therefore, we must have ways to protect these sort of keys.

That being said, a root CA key is probably locked up on an air gapped machine vs some machine which actively using the key to scan through traffic.

Mainly pointing out here that the idea of value vs cost has to have some point at which we protect it regardless of the value because thats how the hierarchy of trust works in our CA system.

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by andromeduck on Monday April 24, 2023 @10:22AM (#35688010)
but there are multiple roots
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by swexbe on Monday April 24, 2023 @10:52AM (#35688363)
There are also multiple countries
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by andromeduck on Monday April 24, 2023 @02:33PM (#35691344)
Escrow compromise as described has a iserial systems failure probability wheres today with root keyts it's parallel. That's weakest link vs isolated/partitioned.

CAs have been nuked on occasion without much fanfare to everyday users.

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by swexbe on Monday April 24, 2023 @03:09PM (#35691782)
You could theoretically set up multiple competing government agencies, each with their own root key. That would deal even with organisational risk.
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by lb1lf on Monday April 24, 2023 @12:11PM (#35689478)
Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by yrro on Monday April 24, 2023 @12:19PM (#35689625)
> If you have those, you can essentially impersonate anyone.

Once. This would be immediately detected through Certificate Transparency and there would be front-page headlines around the world about the chaos that ensued as vendors issued a critical update blocking that CA certificate.

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by varispeed on Monday April 24, 2023 @10:46AM (#35688296)
It's a sign of slowly moving Overton Window.

They'll eventually get it.

Re:UK Threatens End-to-End Encryption by usrbinbash on Monday April 24, 2023 @10:59AM (#35688455)