My hypothesis is it's connected to the decline in religion, or, more specifically, the mandatory church on Sunday type of religion, no matter what flavor it took.

A built in semi-mandatory third place seems pretty nifty as far as building social relationships goes.

I'm an atheist but I do remember building bonds this way in those heady pre-smartphone days. It's a shame the baby is stuck in the bathwater.

The decline in religion happened after the increase of convenience. Hence the popularity of televised religious content.

My church started streaming services during the Covid lockdowns, but it's really not the same as being there.

I think it's deliberate because plebs socializing is a destabilizing factor to the state.

Religious buildings can be third places, but the kind Christian churches that have faded out of American public life fail the “neutral ground” condition: there’s usually strong social and community pressure to make appearances, meaning that individuals can’t come and go as they please.

This is in contrast with dominant religions (including Christianity) in other countries.

Suicide rates in men are highest in rural areas, which also have highest Church attendance. Does not track. From experience, going to church doesn't necessarily mean you'll connect with other families. At most I've seen extended family co-mingling at a family member's place or resto after service. Living in the city, there is no shortage of ways to connect with others on the physical plane, should one choose to do so.

I don't think so. I'm not in US, but here „third place“ was not a thing regardless of density. In fact, now climbing out of ex-soviet past (read poverty and totalitarian regime preventing the third place as well as urban sprawl), we got both urban sprawl and growth of the „third place“. Well, little growth from next-to-none. Which is hitting a low ceiling of rather intraverted culture that is caught up in TV and interwebs. Why go to bars if everybody is sitting in tight groups-of-friends and scrolling together...

Ironically, somewhat-third-place, seems to be most active in suburbs and rural areas. Where neighbours need to work together to solve various community issues. And that turns into partying together as well. It's common to have a community house where everybody can use the space for organising whatever, from playing table games to art classes to random lectures to movie nights. While densier cities seem to be less socializing outside of family&friends circles.

I just came back from Vietnam and I noticed that many Western countries lack low intensity socialising. There are tea carts everywhere. People sit, sip tea or some other light beverage and just do nothing. They’re close to others who are also doing nothing with whom they may or may not engage with. Bars and clubs are too intense, too expensive and unappealing if you don’t drink alcohol. At libraries and coffeeshops people are often busy.

Most of Europe has a café culture. It is sorely missing from North America. You just sit outside and watch the world go by.

Berlin in particular has lots of parks, and people can go there with drinks, grills, frisbees etc. The sheer number of them means that most people are within walking distance from one. It’s great to meet without spending money. Again, those are almost absent in most of North America. You have to drive to them, so they’re inaccessible to kids. My hometown made loitering almost illegal in them anyway.

Illegal to 'loiter' in a park? What does legal use of it look like? Moving through at a swift pace with eyes straight ahead and a stamped permit that it's the most efficient path to your destination?

Hustle! Hustle everywhere!

My personal* experience is that in areas of the US where real estate is highly valued, there's a low level resentment of anybody existing without having an intent to spend money. Parks are tolerated, but the expectation is that they're purely cosmetic, to be walked through at the very most.

* My experience is not universal and is just that: my personal experience.

It's a delayed vestige of the "stranger danger" panic of the 80's and 90's. Being in a park without kids is considered suspicious in some places now. Fortunately, not where I live.

It’s also a subtle way to punish poor people. Obviously it impacts the homeless, but even poorer people without yards or adequate access to private space to play/relax will be forced to loiter in public to get out of the house.

More like sit and scroll on your phone... :D

I love the idea of what cafes were supposed to be a century ago. But nowadays HN or some subreddits plays the same role. Now I can live in bum-fuck-nowhere and interact with other people from wherever. While saving on exorbitant rent just to be close to meeting points.

On other other hand, this kills the romanticised idea of the cities. But are we after „city life“ as a cargo cult? Or exchange of ideas? Internet enables later from even most remote points of the world. While former feels more like roleplaying nowadays.

Community building is slightly different from cafe culture though. Cafes culture is similar to social media bubbles. Community that connects people physically living in the same people allowing to solve practical problems of the day is needed one way or another.

If you think that meeting someone over drinks is equivalent to exchanging a few comments asynchronously, one of us is blissfully unware that they're missing out.

Café culture simply means that you have a convenient place to meet with other people with some regularity. You really don't need to be judgemental and dismissive about it.

I see two faces of it. One is meeting local people as in building local community and fulfilling socialising bar for yourself. Another is collaborating on ideas long-term. Those are very different.

For me the most valuable part is the later. And interwebs do wonders in this space. Same conversions IRL may have been nicer, but there's no way I could have been part of them (or at least so many of them) otherwise. And if you're in a crowded cafe watching a famous person... It's not 1-on-1 conversation either, much closer to Reddit's AmA thread...

As for building local community... IMO Cafes are too restrictive. A decent community space wins all day any day.

I'm saying that most of Europe has access to such spaces, and that they serve an important purpose. It's a good place for loosely planned social encounters. Whether or not you personally like them is irrelevant.

> And if you're in a crowded cafe watching a famous person

You can go to another café

Born, raised and living in Europe, it seems to me to be a myth of days long gone. I love the idea in theory. But I just don’t see it playing out in real life. They do play a role. But I do see similar, if not better, scenarios happening in different settings.

Another cafe wouldn’t have that famous person though. Which is fine. Just saying that many real life interactions ain’t deep 1-on-1 conversations.

You think parks are "almost absent" in North America?

I feel like parks in most of the U.S. are dominated by activities. Sports, jungle gyms, etc. Often times there’s not a great place to just sit down and socialize.

every single park ive ever been to does in fact have this weird little thing called grass

But there's also the sprinklers that go off every minute to keep the grass looking healthy so no one can sit on it. Or the grass is part of the baseball field. Plenty of good parks in the US for hanging out but wayyy more bad ones where just socializing seems like an afterthought, or not a thought at all.

Nah there's still plenty of "An area that's mostly nature and you can just walk through and enjoy it" but the vast majority of them were set up a hundred years ago so the reality is that most of them aren't even remotely close to population centers anymore. This means if you want to walk in a park, first you must drive there. Also in many places, staying past sundown is not allowed, as in the cops drive in (like they will actually drive around on the grass if they physically can!!) and sass you.

Yeah obviously the US is huge and there’s plenty of nature to be found, but somehow we’ve just forgotten to integrate that into our communities and walkable areas completely.

Now I'm wondering if you think we have tiny parks or gigantic playgrounds

The parks as I know them are.

In Germany, there is a park within walking distance, and usually a bike paths leading to it. You can also walk along numerous paths in the forest and along rivers.

In Canada, I would have to drive to them, or risk biking on busy roads. It boggles my mind that you have to drive to the place where you walk. These parks also tend to severely restrict what you can do, and when you can do it.

Sure, there is amazing nature if you can drive to it, but daily access to green spaces is sorely missing.

Work-from-home (as much as I love it) has also killed the "second place" for a lot of people.

Not to mention grocery delivery apps and such. Just speaking personally, it's perhaps a little too easy to never leave my home. Doing so now requires a deliberate decision.