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Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by JanSt on Thursday April 13, 2023 @08:49AM (#35554598)
It‘s basically fear. The Green Party was founded with the mission to stop nuclear power in Germany. The media repeated their talking points for years and years. It sounds so good and we have dozens of „experts“ who tell us how expensive and dangerous nuclear power is.
Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by civilized on Thursday April 13, 2023 @09:00AM (#35554739)
As an American, it's so interesting to look at the intra-European differences we normally ignore.

France managed to scale nuclear power with the consent of the population, and it's gone fine, but for some reason countries right next door don't see anything worth learning.

I guess you could say the same about America and Canada, but some of us are accustomed to seeing Europeans as more enlightened than us politically. I suppose people around the world are not that different in the end.

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by LeanderK on Thursday April 13, 2023 @09:21AM (#35555031)
Another point is that germany is decentralised whereas france is centralised. France can formulate a policy and stick to it, but in germany usually every level of government is involved. And nobody wants to have a nuclear power plants near you. Ignoring local decisions for the greater good is very hard in germany. So I think a there's also naturally a greater pushback in germany than france and then came Chernobyl, which (if I remember correclty) affected germany way more than france. You can still find traces if you analyse wild deer shot from certain areas.

You can also see this in the rail networks, if you ignore that france invested more into it's rail there's also a different philosophy. France not only connected major population centres, it is also quite focused on paris. Exactly as some planners, sitting in paris and planning top-down would devise them. Germany tries to interconnect as much as possible, benefitting as many as possible.

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by hutzlibu on Thursday April 13, 2023 @09:26AM (#35555092)
"You can still find traces if you analyse wild deer shot from certain areas."

A bit more than that. Meat from wild boars in saxony and bavaria must be tested, before it can be sold and they do not disclose how much has to be thrown away.

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by themaninthedark on Friday April 14, 2023 @02:17PM (#35572823)
The fact they don't track how much has to be thrown away is a problem, it could be none and the program is just continued.
Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by mcv on Thursday April 13, 2023 @11:13AM (#35556725)
> Ignoring local decisions for the greater good is very hard in germany.

So how come they're destroying entire villages to mine more coal? Coal, which is far more polluting than nuclear power?

I'm not a fan of nuclear power either, but the German addiction to coal is incomprehensible.

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by LeanderK on Thursday April 13, 2023 @01:36PM (#35559120)
great question! Coal is unfortunately very well connected on every level of the government. For example, the unions are one of the oldest and have very good political connections, especially to the left of the political spectrum and down to the smaller levels. So combined with the corporations they wield a lot of power. I've also seen major players of the political, federal left, meeting with representatives of these unions.

They are the typical union-jobs with large corporations in the background.

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by DoreenMichele on Thursday April 13, 2023 @09:06AM (#35554814)
My general understanding is that for France nuclear energy is about securing its sovereignty as a nation. It was the only means to have adequate control over its energy supply to not be held hostage by some other nation.
Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by rswskg on Friday April 14, 2023 @05:03AM (#35567180)
Plus a path to nuclear weapons.
Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by bayesian_horse on Thursday April 13, 2023 @09:10AM (#35554852)
France subsidized nuclear energy in order to get nuclear weapons. So the incentive is (perceived) national security.

Germany was prevented from having nuclear weapons by various treaties.

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by adrianN on Thursday April 13, 2023 @09:09AM (#35554845)
France is also massively reducing the amount of nuclear power in their grid, for economic reasons.
Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by gpvos on Friday April 21, 2023 @05:30AM (#35651491)
I understand that actually the reduction is happening really slowly. Which economic reasons?
Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by 0xDEF on Thursday April 13, 2023 @09:04AM (#35554791)
For the past many decades the French political elite has been ignoring populist sentiments among the French population.

That is a good thing regarding nuclear energy but much more problematic when it comes to issues like the recent pension reforms.

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by civilized on Thursday April 13, 2023 @09:09AM (#35554842)
Do you think it's a bad idea (I mean policy-wise, separate from politically) to increase retirement age when increasing longevity and low birthrates have shifted the number of workers supporting each retiree so massively? In the US, if I recall correctly, it was once more than 10:1 but now approaching 2:1, and the financial implications of this are massive.
Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by soco on Thursday April 13, 2023 @09:29AM (#35555134)
In the end it makes sense, damn the financial mathematics nobody understands, damn our children - let them pay for our round-the-world trips when we reach 62! And when your importance is rated by how much noise you make, it's totally understandable why union leaders pushed against such a logical and long due measure.
Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by anonym29 on Thursday April 13, 2023 @09:37AM (#35555245)
It's so much worse than that, sadly.

When Social Security was founded in 1935, the full retirement age was 65, and life expectency at birth was 60. Immigration was, though not at record levels, high. As a result, there were ~147 working people paying into Social Security for every beneficiary.

These days, full retirement age is 67, but life expectancy at birth is now 76.1 (was 78.8 in 2019 - the rapid decline is a completely separate issue that deserves it's own thread). Net immigration into the US is at record lows. As a result, there are now fewer than 3 people paying into Social Security for every recipient, about 2.6 last time I ran the numbers.

The average (mean) check for SS recipients (OASI) as of Feb 2023 is $1,693.88. I could not find numbers for the median SS check.

The average individual income in the US as of 2020 is $53,383, while the 2020 median income was $34,612.

Of FICA taxes, 6.2% each from the employer and employee goes to Social Security, the other 1.45% each is earmarked for Medicare. This does NOT include ordinary federal income taxes, state income taxes, county or city income taxes, etc.

So there is an effective tax rate of 12.4% feeding Social Security. It virtually all goes to OASI (Old Age Survivorship Insurance - "retirement" Social Security, distinct from DI, Disability Insurance, which costs a teeny tiny fraction of what OASI costs).

12.4% of the mean individual annual income of $53,383, divided by 12 to get a monthly value, gives us $551.62/month in Social Security funding from the mean income.

12.4% of the median individual annual income of $34,612, divided by 12 to get a monthly value, gives us $357.65/month in Social Security funding from the mean income.

So right now, there is about: 2.6 × [$357.65 to $551.62] roughly responsible for funding $1,693.88 per person. Now multiply that deficit by 67 million, the number of people receiving OASI. No prize for spotting the problem here.

Raising taxes probably won't help as much as proponents think it will, especially if you were to only raise them on the "rich" by raising or removing the FICA cap. Individually, it would be a lot more from those wealthy folks in theory, but the mega-rich of the world don't receive ordinary income the way us mere mortals do, and thanks to the 6,000+ page tax code, they often end up paying far less than we do as an effective tax rate on their income.

I see two solutions: scrap the absurdly complex tax code so the wealthy actually pay what they should be paying according to progressive tax rates to buy some time, and use that time to start figuring out how to solve the massive logistical complexity problems of spinning down the largest mathmatically unsustainable pyramid scheme in the history of all of humanity, the OASI component of Social Security. Mathematically, there is no need to disturb the Disability Insurance component of Social Security, which also helps those who have a far greater legitimate need for supplemental income than people who want to retire on the taxpayer's dime.

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by Mashimo on Thursday April 13, 2023 @09:03AM (#35554766)
France has a long term storage for nuclear waste. Germany has to dig their waste up again because groundwater is leaking in.
Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by civilized on Thursday April 13, 2023 @09:04AM (#35554794)
Interesting point, but seems unlikely to be a root cause of the difference? If anything I would guess the causation goes in the other direction - France was more committed and so did a more thoughtful job setting up nuclear sustainably.
Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by bayesian_horse on Thursday April 13, 2023 @09:12AM (#35554886)
Nope, Nope, Nope. France wanted to have nuclear weapons. Germany wasn't allowed to have them and we mostly didn't want to have them in any case (after WWII at least).

Germany's nuclear infrastructure was just as "sustainable" (and that is a strange word for nuclear industry considering the investments, the mining, etc) as the French one, but smaller and entirely civilian.

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by LargoLasskhyfv on Thursday April 13, 2023 @05:12PM (#35562124)
> entirely civilian

...Hrrm... There has been a strange clustering of Leukemia in children near Geesthacht, with much fuss about why that could be, and that it can't be at all related to the NPP Krümmel and adjoining research center there.

There has been a tv-documentary by the ZDF in 2006, titled "Und keiner weiss warum... Leukämietod in der Elbmarsch" a few articles in the mainstream media, and some blogposts then.

From my memory it was all very strange, much hush-hush by the local government, defamation of concerned citizens, and even stranger the burning up of evidence in of all possible places, a fire station involved several times with emergencies there. By random chance...imagine....

( https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuk%C3%A4miecluster_Elbmarsch... /

https://www.atommuellreport.de/daten/detail/forschungszentru... /

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/geesthacht-labor-bestrei... /

https://netzwerk-regenbogen.de/atomgk070413.html )

Also harassment and hampering of scientists which collected ground samples all over the area, and found no lab willing to examine them in all Germany. So they got it done in Minsk, Belorussia. Funny, isn't it?

What was found there where so called 'spherules', not bigger than one millimeter, hollow ceramic spheres, with (meanwhile?) weakly radioactive matter in them.

Obviously artificial. And unknown. Speculation ensues. Micronukes...

Conspiracy!1!!

Interestingly very similar stuff was also found in Hanau.

( www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/hanau-ermittlungen-wegen-radioaktiver-stoffe-im-wald-a-195069.html )

Whatever, call me sceptic regarding 'civilian'. Especially when the names of Kurt Diebner and Erich Bagge are involved :-)

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by bayesian_horse on Friday April 14, 2023 @02:16AM (#35566109)
Germany doesn't have the capacity to keep anything secret for long. We're a lot worse than the US in that regard, and even they can't keep such things secret.

There were never even rumors anybody wanted a nuclear weapons program. No dark funds. The IAEA is also controlling everything. So yes, any such speculation is ridiculous.

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by LargoLasskhyfv on Saturday April 15, 2023 @05:23AM (#35578991)
Is it? Then what about a the witness seeing a green-yellow flame rising up there during the night, from the other side of the river?

Drunken with Jägermeister, or what? And so much more. Some points are listed in the german wiki-article I linked.

I tend to think about that sort of ridiculing the other way around. As ignorance.

Oh, also Franz Yussuf Strauß, err... https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Josef_Strau%C3%9F

https://taz.de/Franz-Josef-Strauss-und-die-Gelueste-auf-eine...

https://www.spiegel.de/geschichte/kalter-krieg-als-die-us-ar...

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by PurpleRamen on Thursday April 13, 2023 @10:17AM (#35555823)
Nuclear power in France works so fine, they need to shut them down in summer because of cooling-problems. Instead, they buy from Germany, which surprise, has no problems at all in Summer to cover even other countries demand.
Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by Krssst on Thursday April 13, 2023 @10:31AM (#35556052)
Nuclear in France worked very well for decades although it had some hiccups last year. Meanwhile German coal plants are still working despite the considerable installed renewable capacity.

Having so much available renewable electricity that German coal plants would almost shut down for a few days would be a newsworthy event. For France not burning coal is just a regular day (except for last year's hiccups).

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by PurpleRamen on Thursday April 13, 2023 @11:05AM (#35556598)
True, but Germany is shutting down coal too. There is just a bit of delay, for multiple reasons, but mostly because of war and politics.
Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by ChuckNorris89 on Thursday April 13, 2023 @12:40PM (#35558202)
That couldn't be more false. Coal burning in Germany is at its peak. They're even tearing down old villages to mine coal.
Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by PurpleRamen on Thursday April 13, 2023 @03:45PM (#35561133)
The current peak is because of Russia. Coal is used to replace gas, on which they had not much choice. And this peak is supposed to stop in summer. We will see if it will work out. But the phase-out is a long investment and the current plan targets 2038, so it is there. A crucial point is, coal is an important part of some industries, and they have started moving hard to replace it there, so there is a good chance it will work this time. They already tried that 20 years ago, until some corrupt people figured out it's more profitable to move slow, as nobody cared anyway.
Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by ChuckNorris89 on Thursday April 13, 2023 @05:08PM (#35562081)
>The current peak is because of Russia.

No. It's also because they moronically shut down nuclear right after Russia happened instead of keeping it longer. Since they can't replace gas too easily, the coal peak will be longer into the future not just current.

>Coal is used to replace gas

No. Coal is used to generate electricity. Do you know what else they could have used to generate electricity? Nuclear.

The reasoning you provided is just the same ol' anti-nuclear propaganda spewed all over German politics and media: "Oh, it's Russia's fault. We can only use coal. Never nuclear."

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by PurpleRamen on Friday April 14, 2023 @04:39AM (#35567033)
> No. Coal is used to generate electricity.

No, in the first place it's used to generate heat, which is also used for generating electricity, but also to heat up homes and other systems. Nuclear Plants are simply not in a location where they can serve this purpose.

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by themaninthedark on Friday April 14, 2023 @02:23PM (#35572927)
Germany is centrally burning gas and then distributing the heat to houses? And they had to switch their gas plants over to coal because Russia?

I thought they just restarted old coal plants.

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by PurpleRamen on Saturday April 15, 2023 @06:15PM (#35585136)
Yes, it's called district heating or teleheating. And generally is heat also a form of energy used in some other processes, not just for heating up buildings or streets. Energy-politic is far more complex than electricity and building big plants.
Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by Schroedingersat on Thursday April 13, 2023 @03:13PM (#35560631)
And the year before. And the year before that. And a few years before that. And a decade before that.

All while accumulating massive debts and deferred maintenance (and relying on german coal).

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by Krssst on Friday April 14, 2023 @12:21PM (#35571292)
Last year was bad but things looked fine before. Export some days, import some others. Deferred maintenance was because of COVID.

I'd rather my country have debts than burn coal in large amount for decade (likely decades) to come.

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by polotics on Thursday April 13, 2023 @11:08AM (#35556645)
Massive "citation needed" on this. The German Energiwende is a total catastrophe, the story about lack of water for plants is a tall tale. Here's a start: https://jancovici.com/en/energy-transition/societal-choices/...
Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by LargoLasskhyfv on Thursday April 13, 2023 @03:50PM (#35561189)
That article is from May 2013, last updated somewhere in 2017 and mostly contains graphs up to 2014, with very few exceptions going to 2016.

Which makes me think it fails to paint the whole picture, given the events in the following decade. In all dimensions. Be it nuclear phase out, be it geopolitical changes and instability because of war and broken supply chains, be it coal and climate, or the blow-up of Northstream and switching to LNG, be it extension of wind and solar...

Sorry, but mostly useless pretty pictures, considering all the changes that happened meanwhile.

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by polotics on Thursday April 13, 2023 @07:42PM (#35563698)
What changes happened? Can you be more specific?

All I can see is:

Russia invaded Ukraine, the great German idea of relying on Russian gas to manage the intermitent nature of Energiewende dreams went down the drain.

Even more coal and lignite were dug up, more burnt ashes with plenty of radioactive particles were put in German air for all to inhale.

LNG terminals were built to import x3 price American shale gas, making our collective CO2 blanket even thicker...

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by LargoLasskhyfv on Thursday April 13, 2023 @07:59PM (#35563828)
Well...for one I'm missing the changing proportions of wind and solar in relation to gas/oil/nuclear. That has changed, and not in small parts.

No matter how you see it, the picture is incomplete then, not up to date. That's not a good base for discussion.

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by hokkos on Thursday April 13, 2023 @06:25PM (#35562960)
Only 0,18% of annual production lost over rivers heating regulation in 2022, when someone talks about that being important in the french nuclear context, I know for sure that this person doesn't know what he is talking about.

https://medias.vie-publique.fr/data_storage_s3/rapport/pdf/2...

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by Tommstein on Thursday April 13, 2023 @03:55PM (#35561269)
> I guess you could say the same about America and Canada, but some of us are accustomed to seeing Europeans as more enlightened than us politically.

Speak for yourself.

Re:Germany to switch off last remaining nuclear power plants by hutzlibu on Thursday April 13, 2023 @01:12PM (#35558718)
"how expensive and dangerous nuclear power is"

Well, it is dangerous and therefore expensive. Mining Uranium is dirty. Handling the waste is expensive. And handling a big accident is very expensive.

The alternatives are just expensive as well and not without risk either.

So sure, big parts of those fears are definitely irrational. The risks of the invisible dangers of things people do not understand. This is always hard, especially coupled with the fear of a nuclear war. It should probably have been propagated more, that radiation is a very natural thing and without nuclear energy, there likely would be no life on earth, as the earth would be way colder, without fission inside the crust (and core?) warming the earth.