- wear a small rubber band or something similar on your wrist. If you notice yourself ruminating, give yourself a little flick with it - the very slight pain signal pulls you into the here & now!
- designate a time and place to ruminate a bit when you feel the need, but have a timer running, and do something else afterwards. Controlled release in a way!
- generally, if you catch yourself ruminating, try to think of something indicating "STOP" or similar. Personally I imagine a big STOP road sign and also "shout" it in my internal voice.
It might sound silly, but after actively training for a few weeks you'll have much more freedom in your thoughts!
"Counting five breaths" is a tool I got from some mindfulness resource. Focus on the breath as much as you can and count the exhales. When you get to five, begin again from one. Repeat until settled. If I'm fairly out-of-it, it may take me 10 repeats of counting five breaths to center myself. Sometimes it doesn't work at all.
I will say that I have been practicing mindfulness meditation for 7 years in various traditions and have never come across this technique. It also goes against the definition of mindfulness (paying attention to the present moment without judgement) as it is applying judgement to your thoughts.
I have experienced very difficult and dark periods of meditation when I was hard on myself for thinking, and learning to be very kind to myself in meditation was a huge step forward in my practice. Rather than “stop”, I say “thinking” to myself in a kind way.
None of the techniques I described are meant to be judgemental. It's only about helping yourself passively recognize rumination. While it did them I never once felt I was being unkind to myself, since it's neither meant to hurt nor negatively judge. The "STOP" example is literally about picturing something, not about "screaming at yourself".
To get back to your initial points - you are definitely correct that you have to approach yourself with kindness, and if you feel that anything I described is unkind, you should find a way that works for you!
For some the "rubber band" method may just be a silly reminder, but for others it could be a mild form of self harm. The same person may be in a very different emotional space from hour to hour or month to month.
...is an incredibly common fallacy. I don't say that to dismiss your experience, as I'm sure the things helped you and you are genuinely trying to help others- and that these things can help lots of people. My issue is solely with the word 'everybody'
Here is why it is toxic: for people who those things don't work, or for whom the proposed solution is beyond their ability, it's a short step to blaming them for their problems and writing them off. Which is a very common reaction to mental health problems, even among mental health professionals.
I myself have never meditated much, but have had my dad who used to disappear in to the forest for a few weeks at a time (he has done that all his life, something he learned from his father etc, as part of the culture of a traditional medicinal healer). He meditates. To clarify, he meditates ALL the time. In a loud train. While my mom watches loud annoying soap operas. While lying down. Not on a schedule he puts in the calendar. To him that was the default state of mind. In some ways not very dissimilar to what Ron Swanson does in the clip. Maybe some day I’ll try that out, but it sure ain’t gonna be by popping headphones with an app playing white noise. It’s gotta be a fundamental change in what you do in every step of life.
Having said that, it looks like even forced meditation on a schedule still helps a bit. Just don’t expect to be a long term miracle cure. It’s safe to say anything Tim Ferris says works in helping him calm down is likely not a real solution lol.
The problem isn't that you have to try it to see if it's works. The problem is that psych professionals a) have a poor grasp of decision theory and b) have an incentive to optimise their time and not the patients.
The time frame is not relevant as people differ in their abilities, as you have noted. Typically there would be some measurable change that helps determine how "you" are feeling overall in the process, not how other people felt at the indicated time frame. After all the goal is for "you" to feel better, which is subjective to everyone.
> The problem isn't that you have to try it to see if it's works.
I'm not sure I see how this would work any other way than trying it. A person is only trying the recommendation not perfecting it.
> The problem is that psych professionals a) have a poor grasp of decision theory and b) have an incentive to optimise their time and not the patients.
I'm not directly following how this relates to the original comment stating that recommending something for someone was toxic. Much like all professions some people are better at their job than others, sometimes you find the right fit, sometimes you have to keep going. We all have to walk our own path, no one can walk it for us.
*"you" is in the objective sense, not directed at you specifically.
>Here is why it is toxic: for people who those things don't work, or for whom the proposed solution is beyond their ability, it's a short step to blaming them for their problems and writing them off.
It seems very illogical to be on a recommendation engine of a site if its difficult for you to to reason with the recommendations posted and/or the direct feedback that people also post, relating to the topic at hand. I pointed out that this is what HN was based on. I disagree that it is toxic for someone else to make a recommendation, based on their perspectives, to try something on a site like HN.
If you had possible insight I would like to understand two things:
1. Why is someone one a site like HN if they aren't the intended audience?
2. What value would they derive from the site, presumably knowing their own mental health and that any recommendation they could read would be toxic to them because they may not be able to achieve the desired outcome?
I'm not saying meditation is bad per se. But claiming straiht away that it can't do harm before you try it is just too strong of a statement. It's easy to dismiss the effect of opportunity cost.
You don't. Just as equally you can't say a recommendation is harmful that you haven't actually evaluated or performed yourself. No one dismissed opportunity cost, in fact its was clearly stated above that everything has a cost, both doing and not doing something.
It's hard to do harm with taking a one hour walk every day.
It's hard to do harm doing yoga for an hour a day.
It's hard to do harm with cooking a really healthy meal every day.
It's hard to do harm watching a self-improvement video on youtube every day.
It's hard to do harm writing down self-reflective thoughts for half an hour before going to bed every night.
...
No, if you compare it with sitting on the sofa staring into the wall, then no, it's likely not going to harm. But that's the wrong comparison. You need to compare with what you instead do not do with your limited time. And then doing all those things can do a lot of (relative) harm.
It's easy to do harm with claiming a certain thing is hard to do harm with.
1. There are plenty of people who excel at items better than others. Athletes, researchers, hackers, plumbers, electricians, basically anyone. 2. Our entire human evolution has been taking chances on things that might not succeed. 3. This is literally what YC/Hacker News is and was formed from, i.e Things posted or commented on are not given with the intention that it will work for everyone. Its all an experiment.
To loosely quote Eleanor Roosevelt[1]: > "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
People who have mental health issues often have limited energy, so need to consider carefully the amount of time they should invest in each possible thing that might help them.
>People who have mental health issues often have limited energy, so need to consider carefully the amount of time they should invest in each possible thing that might help them.
This can apply to everyone not just people with mental health issues. The onus is placed on the reader here since we have established that HN is just an recommendation engine. Everyone is has a responsibility to do their own due diligence, especially from comments made on the Internet.
“everyone can benefit from this therefore everyone should do it”
To
“People who are X and Y can benefit from this and should try it”
Kind of like the sanity checks/boundary checks we put in the beginning of a function before we start processing data.
Why would the onus for this not be on the reader to place within their own bounds of understanding and abilities?
Being judged for recommending meditation is weird. I bounced off of meditation too. I don't actively practice it nowadays. I think at a certain point in my life, it wasn't helpful at all because of where I was psychologically and emotionally. It was way too painful. However, I learned from that experience, and I do think it was a valuable experience that led me to CBT, and tried different things.
I find your comment far more toxic and encouraging of doing nothing. How about you not blame people? I don't. Everybody is on their own journey and that's okay. If somebody feels meditation doesn't work for them, that's fine. Maybe something else will. However, I do feel that it's a universal skill that can benefit everybody. If somebody is unwilling or unable to train it, that's totally fine. I won't force anything on anybody or judge them for it. As an individual, it's up to you to make your own choices and decide what's best for you. All I can do is share my experience and my advice.
This has been a very controversial comment, but a lot of people who disagree are reading things into it that I did not say. All I'm saying is, people are different, and something working for you doesn't mean it will work for everyone. You don't need to let your enthusiasm for something lead you into making categorical statements which gaslight those for whom it doesn't work.
I guess there is something badly worded about my comment which appears to insult you, which was not my intention, so I apologise for that.
I think that if you are getting the feeling that responders are coming across as adversarial or misinterpreting what you are presenting, which happens with text, its a good time to reflect on things. Hopefully this helps.
Im my mind, therapy is a remedy to a problem after its diagnosis. If you don't have a problem, you don't do/need therapy. If you do have a problem, start by getting it properly diagnosed by a professional in the area (mental health, physiology, ... any area in which people run to a therapist first thing). Anything else is upside down and potentially a huge waste of time and/or money or worse, possibly without even realizing it.
Another thing to consider is “preventative” vs “diagnostic” therapy.
Honestly, everybody should be practicing mindfulness meditation and cognitive-based therapy. It's a powerful combination. Also, see a therapist. A decent one is worth their weight in gold. Even though I was practicing these things, it was clear it wasn't a perfect fix and adding a third-party perspective was a huge help in learning how to regulate my thoughts and emotions. Some things we simply can't solve completely on our own.