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Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by joshstrange on Monday April 03, 2023 @11:21AM (#35425218)
This has been my experience since I first went from windows to mac. People always talk about the "Apple Tax" and it's real but it's not as obscene as people make it out to be when you factor in longevity. I had friends in college who were replacing ~$400-500 machines almost yearly while my ~$1,200 machine (2009) lasted all 4 years and then some. I only upgraded since I was using it professionally and wanted some more power. I have friends who are using their old MacBooks from college up until a few years ago (over 10 years). Now if you are using the machine professionally you might want to upgrade more often but I still get 4 years easily out of my MBPs. I upgraded early (~2 years in) for the M1 Max because it was such a nice jump but I could still be using my 2019 right now if I wanted to.
Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by anthonypasq on Monday April 03, 2023 @11:40AM (#35425639)
did you ever stop to think that maybe if they bought a $1200 windows machine it would have lasted 4 years.

also macs were very early to hop on the ssd train and that was an insane advantage over most windows machines. I think that gap has closed substantially at this point.

Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by joshstrange on Monday April 03, 2023 @11:48AM (#35425799)
It might have lasted 4 years, but you'll note I said I knew people using them up to 10 years. In fact my 2014 MBP is still in service, a friend of mine uses it. I had a $1k+ Windows laptop that was a few years old in 2007-2009 and I was thoroughly unimpressed in it's build quality and how crappy/slow it was after 2 years. This was all pre-ssd even on macs (or at least the macs I was buying).

I have no doubt that Windows laptop build quality has improved in the last decade, in no small part to chasing after Apple, but at this point I can't imagine going back to Windows so I'll never really know.

Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by smoldesu on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:25PM (#35426648)
There are also laptops that went the opposite direction from Apple, yet they keep on trucking. Old Thinkpads, Panasonic Toughbooks and HP Elitebooks are perfectly usable today, arguably moreso than older Macs. Toss Linux on it, and you'll have longer first-party support than any Macbook shipped in the last decade.

If anything, the repairability and upgradability that prevented old Macs from being e-waste is gone now. It's hard to imagine Apple pushing the envelope on reusability or device longevity in their current era.

Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by bmelton on Monday April 03, 2023 @11:54AM (#35425943)
> maybe if they bought a $1200 windows machine it would have lasted 4 years

Maybe it's different now (I haven't used Windows in decades, so I don't know) but I will say that it never felt that way to me. Perhaps because Apple controls the OS and the hardware, and has the ability to either spend extra time optimizing for older known hardware that falls within a support window or to delay a feature that would be problematic for older-but-supported hardware, but my lived experience with Apple hardware is that I get a lot more practical longevity out of it without having to work to squeeze every last drop of performance out of it.

Yes, I can always take a $1200 Windows machine and put XFCE or Xubuntu or Mate on it and it'll extend its life considerably, but as someone who has always tried to extend the life of my components as long as possible (the server at my feet is an Athlon FX) -- it's always just felt easier on Apple hardware.

It's even easier still with non-Windows PC operating systems, but ... has Windows gotten better on this regard or is that longevity still bolstered by migrating away from Windows?

Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by goosedragons on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:19PM (#35426495)
From a software support perspective macOS is the worst. They don't tell you how long an OS/machine will be supported for they just cut off support whenever they feel like it. So some machines will get 5 years, some 8, it's a roll of the dice. They sort of update N-2 versions but they also don't bring back every bug fix so...

I don't think they spend any real time optimizing for old hardware, for example APFS is just a turd on HDD systems and yet they forced everyone on it and worse yet kept selling HDD iMacs on the low end (which really wasn't that low).

Meanwhile MS announces in advance what the support window will be. With Windows 10 there was barely any difference in requirements from Windows 8 so pretty much everything that wasn't a bottom tier netbook or tablet from 2010 still works fine and is supported until 2025. Meanwhile the 2013 Mac Pro which was an expensive beast and sold until late 2019 won't even get some security updates in 2025.

Linux and the BSDs also announce ahead of time the support period and there's a plethora of options for aging hardware.

Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by kyleplum on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:05PM (#35427430)
It seems dishonest to leave out Windows 11 when talking about how MS is for announcing in advance what support will be. They did not give anywhere near proper notice about the TPM/UEFI/Secureboot requirement ahead of time.
Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by Rimintil on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:19PM (#35428827)
> They did not give anywhere near proper notice about the TPM/UEFI/Secureboot requirement ahead of time.

Nearly all machines, DIY included, would have met these requirements. Intel PTT has been built into their processors since 2013. AMD for at least a few years.

Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by adastra22 on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:39PM (#35426924)
From a software compatibility perspective, nothing beats Windows. Your windows laptop will continue to run flawlessly until the hardware stops working (although you may have to do a clean reinstall from time to time). Microsoft takes software compatibility very seriously.

Hardware as high quality as Apple is harder to come by though, and generally commands the same price premium.

Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by ricardobayes on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:30PM (#35428983)
Windows 11 is very good, so good in fact I couldn't even state one fault with it. No issues in heavy daily usage whatsoever. I'm no windows fanboy, but it's a decent work/play OS. I've tried a few times to get used to Mac's, but found a lot of things very confusing - how to really close apps to save up some memory, the window close/minimize buttons are in the wrong corner, icons are (were?) a weird flat/3D combination. Oh, and that all-aluminium body on macs. I don't know if it's just me having dry skin but I sort of always felt a slight buzz when it's charging.
Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by bombcar on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:09PM (#35426290)
The problem is finding the $1200 windows machine that feels valuable and worth it after four years; it's hard to find one that has the "build quality" if you will. Maybe people with the Surface are pleased with it still, that looked pretty nice.
Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by SoftTalker on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:20PM (#35426526)
I mean, any "pro" grade Dell or Lenovo laptop will last 10 years if it's not dropped or otherwise abused too badly. I've had several. I don't run Windows on them, so don't know how that experience would be. But hardware-wise they hold up. They aren't quite as light and elegant as a Mac but that doesn't matter to me.
Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by bscphil on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:59PM (#35427321)
Even commodity Dells like the Inspiron and XPS models tend to be extremely repairable (and fairly upgradable, which is where Apple really falls flat). Granted that there will always be lemons (and there have been lemon Macs, in which case you are SOL), but by and large people replacing PCs after a year or two just don't care to take the time.

I'm currently using a Dell XPS laptop that will turn 12 years old in a few months. Since I bought it, I've been able to

1. Replace the AC adapter and battery multiple times (the most common failure point for this model).

2. Upgrade the screen (yes, really!) to a wide color gamut model that can do photo editing in the AdobeRGB space. (New Macs have good screens, but not so long ago even the MBP only had an sRGB screen).

3. Add an SSD.

4. Upgrade the memory (supports up to 32 GB).

5. Upgrade the WiFi adapter card to a new model that supports WiFi 5 (née AC), getting me much faster wireless without having to buy a new laptop.

And ... a bunch of other stuff. All this has cost me less money, in total, than a brand new bottom-of-the-line Dell model would have cost me at any point in the last 12 years. The point being, if you're going to replace your device after 4 years anyway, may as well get a Macbook Air at this point (especially with the M1/M2 chip). But I've been delighted by the longevity of my old Dell.

Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by chubbnix on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:59PM (#35427326)
I still have my Asus ROG g73S from 2010 and boot it up from time to time when I need a windows machine or CD/DVD/blu ray player. It runs windows 10 these days and doesn't have any issues with drivers, I definitely think its closer to apple in terms of both price and longevity. I use a macbook pro as my daily driver now and love the smaller form factor though.
Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by bombcar on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:12PM (#35428696)
They usually keep working just fine, but the Macs get beat up and bent a bit and keep "sticking together", the Dells and friends end up with broken covers, cracks, etc. Doesn't matter for the working part, but makes it much harder when someone wants "a newish one".
Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by hospitalJail on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:41PM (#35428080)
Get something with a video card and SSD.

Ignore 'build quality' that is marketing nonsense that companies use to exploit you.

Last year I picked up a computer with these requirements for $550. Its been flawless.

If I was going to spend another $700, I'd either get 2, or upgrade my video card.

Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by Al-Khwarizmi on Monday April 03, 2023 @02:58PM (#35429452)
Out of 6 ThinkPads from the "pro" tiers that I've had, none of them failed at all and all of them worked fine for much longer than that, except from one whose screen failed after 3 years or so (ThinkPads had a bad quality period around the Vista era, then recovered much of the lost quality, although if they fall from a height they probably no longer end up fine while denting the ground like my 2005 ThinkPad did. By the way, in fact that ThinkPad, from 2005, still works, except that obviously it has almost no battery, doesn't support the latest Windows and is slow with current bloated software and websites).
Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by BluePen7 on Monday April 03, 2023 @12:11PM (#35426329)
Maybe it could have lasted 4 years, but you had to choose carefully.

I've worked at orgs that used a variety of expensive windows laptops, because they kept having abysmal failure rates and switching every year.

They already had stacks of failed Surface Books and ASUS Zenbooks.

Maybe my HP Elitebook would have lasted, but it was terrible to use the whole time.

Not that my Mac experience has been flawless, but the odds seem to be far better.

Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by Krasnol on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:30PM (#35427890)
> I had friends in college who were replacing ~$400-500 machines almost yearly

Come on...can we tone down the ridiculous statements here, please?

I don't know what your friends did to this hardware, but there isn't anything out there you HAVE to replace "almost yearly". Not even for that price.

Re:Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeti... by naasking on Monday April 03, 2023 @03:30PM (#35429945)
> I had friends in college who were replacing ~$400-500 machines almost yearly while my ~$1,200 machine (2009) lasted all 4 years and then some.

Other people have noted that shelling out the same for Windows hardware might get you better quality, but there's also the possibility that people who spend that much don't want to shell that out again so they take better care of their stuff.