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Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by sammalloy on Friday March 31, 2023 @06:03PM (#35394286)
> Cars are getting so big that people can’t drive them.

While controversial because car companies in the US intentionally chose to market large SUVs to the public, there is some evidence that smaller vehicles are safer and that auto manufacturers have doubled down on unsafe vehicles. Why this is the case, isn’t exactly known, but one of the theories is that bad drivers will get behind bigger cars and take more risks.

I’ve driven both large SUVs and smaller subcompacts, and I can talk at length on the pros and cons. However, as a driver, I can tell you that smaller cars are often bullied by larger cars, and this gives weight to the idea that people driving larger vehicles take larger risks, resulting in greater danger to the driver and to other cars and pedestrians.

There’s also the mistaken perception by older generations that smaller cars are inherently more dangerous; this was once true, and everyone can point to disastrously unsafe compact cars in the 1970s and 1980s. But due to modern technology and safety enhancements, this probably hasn’t been true for the last two decades or more. This older, erroneous belief continues to underlie why people choose larger vehicles today.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by LanceH on Friday March 31, 2023 @06:21PM (#35394518)
Smaller cars are more dangerous in a multi-car accident.

Most accidents only involve a single car.

There is less control in larger vehicles.

Everyone thinks they are a better driver than they are and the only way they'll end up in an accident is if someone else hits them.

Add all this up and many want to drive larger cars.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by Schroedingersat on Friday March 31, 2023 @08:30PM (#35395679)
> Smaller cars are more dangerous in a multi-car accident.

Smaller cars bear more of the risk in a multi-car accident from the more dangerous larger cars. The smaller cars themselves are safer.

It's like saying t-shirts are less safe than guns because they won't stop bullets.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by 8ytecoder on Friday March 31, 2023 @10:22PM (#35396405)
It's a negative spiral. More people get bigger cars now because well there are more bigger cars on the road now. That and the convenience of an SUV is unbeatable for people with families - like baby seats or ease of getting in and out and so on. When I bought my car almost a decade ago, it felt reasonably sized. Now it looks puny on the road.
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by Schroedingersat on Friday March 31, 2023 @10:36PM (#35396479)
True. But language is important. We don't have to help them victim blame.
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by LanceH on Friday March 31, 2023 @11:48PM (#35396911)
No victim blaming. Smaller cars are more dangerous given an accident is already occurring between multiple cars.

Choosing a car to be in an accident, a bigger car is a solid choice. Of course, that skips over being in an accident at all. It also skips over any concern for others -- but so many people view that hypothetical accident as clearly the other person's fault, so may as well go with the big car.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by Schroedingersat on Saturday April 01, 2023 @01:28AM (#35397419)
> Smaller cars are more dangerous given an accident is already occurring between multiple cars.

Again, you're victim blaming here. The small car is not causing the danger. T-shirts are not more dangerous than guns just because someone firing a gun randomly into a crowd is less likely to get hurt than someone in the crowd wearing a t-shirt.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by LanceH on Saturday April 01, 2023 @02:47AM (#35397825)
Still not victim blaming, go back and read the whole thing again.

Which car is safer if you're choosing a car to be in? big or small? The bigger is safer and the smaller is more dangerous (to be in), in a multi-car accident.

My whole post was on the rationalization of the choice of size of car. Language matters, as you say. It is about people not choosing the smaller car and not being the victim due to driving a smaller car.

Yes, the escalation of size causes problems in aggregate, but not the point of what I wrote.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by Schroedingersat on Saturday April 01, 2023 @03:38AM (#35398113)
The small car is safer to be in. The person with the small car is causing less danger.

You are participating in the victim blaming and the arms race by conflating the externalisation of risk with safety. And there is no need to aggregate to see the effect. It is present in every individual case.

The person in the big car is not being safer, they are being more dangerous and more selfish. Just because they perceive that their selfishness is exceeding the added danger (something not borne out by the stats) does not justify it. Acknowledging the framing of the auto industry is making the problem worse.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by scott_w on Saturday April 01, 2023 @01:37AM (#35397466)
All being equal, no it’s not. However, SUVs get their “safety” by killing the drivers of smaller vehicles. Two SUVs colliding is more dangerous for both than, say, two Ford Fiestas colliding.

And that’s to say nothing of what happens when the person being hit is a pedestrian or cyclist.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by scott_w on Saturday April 01, 2023 @01:35AM (#35397449)
Perceived convenience for people with families. Actual convenience is a joke because they’re horrifically impractical compared to an estate (station wagon in the USA).
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by smegger001 on Saturday April 01, 2023 @01:47AM (#35397507)
Minivans are in many ways more practical than SUV for families just as many seats easier access back row of seat tons of leg room better millage. and while suvs perform better in head on collisions van are safer in most other as the suvs are more top heavy and likely to tip. Vans just have a stigma as the soccer mom vehicle despite all those soccer moms having moved to suvs to get away from it.
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by smegger001 on Friday March 31, 2023 @08:35PM (#35395728)
>Everyone thinks they are a better driver than they are and the only way they'll end up in an accident is if someone else hits them.

I hear this a lot and wonder how true it is because I personally think i am a horrible driver and can't wait until actually safe fully self driving cars take away my need to drive. on the other had a drive a small car and want a smaller one despite sharing the roads with behemoth raised 4x4 pickups that seem to be inexplicably popular.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by amrocha on Saturday April 01, 2023 @03:34AM (#35398095)
Self driving cars are never coming in a form that would allow you to absolve yourself of responsibility for driving
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by ben_w on Saturday April 01, 2023 @05:08AM (#35398616)
"Never" is a long time.

Given the explanations I've been given for why demonstration videos of general purpose vision-based robots are still often sped up x4 or more (despite Tesla and Spot), I have to assume it's at least a few years away yet, but that's not never.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by kergonath on Saturday April 01, 2023 @05:42AM (#35398816)
The human will always be responsible. There is no way the manufacturers are going to accept liability in case their self driving car has an accident.
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by ailun on Saturday April 01, 2023 @05:57AM (#35398893)
I remember hearing something different. Seems like Mercedes is moving in that direction.

https://insideevs.com/news/575160/mercedes-accepts-legal-res...

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by kergonath on Saturday April 01, 2023 @06:27AM (#35399051)
Interesting. I’ll be happy to eat my hat in a couple of years, but I don’t think this will be generalised.
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by ben_w on Saturday April 01, 2023 @08:43AM (#35399845)
Even if so, they may be forced to do so for the right to market the vehicle as self driving.

I would favour this.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by amrocha on Saturday April 01, 2023 @09:13PM (#35406041)
Even if legally you're not culpable, you're still responsible for choosing to use a death machine in an environment where it can cause harm to others.
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by ben_w on Sunday April 02, 2023 @11:41AM (#35411709)
Are you arguing against human drivers there, or against cars in general?
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by amrocha on Sunday April 02, 2023 @03:35PM (#35414246)
Against personal cars in cities
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by bwilli123 on Friday March 31, 2023 @06:08PM (#35394344)
These Stupid Trucks are Literally Killing Us

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo&t=1858s

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by Gordonjcp on Friday March 31, 2023 @06:33PM (#35394661)
> I’ve driven both large SUVs and smaller subcompacts, and I can talk at length on the pros and cons.

One thing I find genuinely surprising is that the Renault Zoes we have as pool cars at work have got far bigger blind spots and far worse visibility than my 25-year-old Range Rover.

And, in turn, although that Range Rover is described as an SUV (it's not especially sporty, it's a top-heavy three tonne army truck with nicer seats), it's the same length and width as most "normal" family saloons. It's got a much smaller footprint on the road than some large 5-seaters like a Tesla Model S.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by avar on Friday March 31, 2023 @09:37PM (#35396140)
It's because of modern safety regulations. A, B and C pillars are all thicker, so are doors. Windows don't go as low to improve crash outcomes.
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by lostlogin on Saturday April 01, 2023 @02:20AM (#35397667)
Yes!

My ‘60s Triumph 2000 had amazing visibility. If I’d rolled I’d have died for sure, but I’d have seen the thing that killed me.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by logi2mus on Friday March 31, 2023 @06:08PM (#35394345)
Risk compensation
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by thevagrant on Friday March 31, 2023 @07:17PM (#35395080)
I've noticed that certain types of large vehicles attract drivers (or create false confidence) in bad driving and aggressive driving habits.

It is appears that the driver of the large SUV or pickup believes they have right of way over smaller cars, pedestrians and cyclists.

A "get out of my way" attitude.

I love small cars, not to mention cycling and walking.

It concerns me that the shift of cars parked at the parking lot has dramatically changed over the past 20 years.

Walking from the car to the shop is like carpark gauntlet, you need to be increasingly ready to dodge giant vehicles reversing with disregard to their surroundings.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by ip26 on Friday March 31, 2023 @10:57PM (#35396621)
Surveys have found that people driving large SUVs and trucks like them for reasons including, it makes them feel powerful, and it makes them feel important. These were high on the list, even.
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by drdec on Friday March 31, 2023 @08:50PM (#35395828)
> car companies in the US intentionally chose to market large SUVs to the public,

This didn't happen in a vacuum. Poorly written fuel efficiency regulations incentivized automakers to do this.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by HEmanZ on Friday March 31, 2023 @09:07PM (#35395931)
My unscientific pet theory is that poorly built/zoned neighborhoods and cities, designed as if every human needs to drive a giant car at all times, are to blame more
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by amrocha on Saturday April 01, 2023 @03:33AM (#35398088)
Neighborhoods are built slower than cars are, and the increase in car size has outpaced construction. Sure we should fix our neighborhoods, but they're not the main reason behind increasing car sizes.
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by amrocha on Saturday April 01, 2023 @03:31AM (#35398074)
They weren't "poorly written" as much as "lawmakers accepted bribes to add exemptions for semis"
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by nukeman on Friday March 31, 2023 @09:04PM (#35395918)
Bigger vehicles by volume are safer, as there is more space for crumple zones. Bigger vehicles by mass are more dangerous, as there is more momentum and kinetic energy involved in a collision.
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by tmnvix on Friday March 31, 2023 @09:23PM (#35396030)
I think bigger vehicles often have the disadvantage of having a more rigid chassis.
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by helaoban on Saturday April 01, 2023 @02:13AM (#35397623)
Bigger vehicles by volume are taller vehicles, they impact pedestrians closer to the vital organs in the upper torso and head. Pedestrians are also more likely to be swallowed / run over by cars with higher ride heights.
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by sammalloy on Saturday April 01, 2023 @05:33PM (#35404308)
> Pedestrians are also more likely to be swallowed / run over by cars with higher ride heights.

It would be very interesting to see more studies on this. Where I am, the car of choice is a lifted truck that I don’t think has been accounted for with regards to pedestrian safety.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by nradov on Friday March 31, 2023 @09:16PM (#35395972)
Americans spend a lot of time in their vehicles. Big vehicles are simply more comfortable and practical on a daily basis, at least outside of a few dense cities. If you're going to be stuck in traffic then might as well have some space to stretch out instead of being squeezed into a compact car. Safety is less of a concern for most buyers.

You can argue that this is irrational based on handling or fuel economy or whatever. But for better or worse buyers prefer size and comfort.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by lostlogin on Saturday April 01, 2023 @02:25AM (#35397701)
I’m around 195cm. There is plenty of space. I can fit very comfortably into most vehicles (passenger planes excluded). Outside of leg and elbow room, what can you even do with that extra space when stuck in a traffic jam?
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by Symbiote on Saturday April 01, 2023 @05:19AM (#35398658)
You may leave less room for rear seat, adult passengers if you drive a compact car.

It's still manageable, and fine for occasional trips, but I wouldn't choose that car to drive 4 adults daily.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by jessaustin on Saturday April 01, 2023 @09:49AM (#35400285)
...I wouldn't choose that car to drive 4 adults daily.

Is this a typical thing that cars do? I'm not sure if I've seen 4 adults in a car in the last month.

Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by tbrownaw on Saturday April 01, 2023 @03:23PM (#35403243)
Before the plague forced pervasive WFH, this was every Friday when a bunch of us would pick somewhere for lunch and all pile into the fewest cars needed.
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by jessaustin on Monday April 03, 2023 @09:56PM (#35433986)
A long time ago I worked in an office like that. I usually biked to commute, so when we had one more person going than cars going to lunch, I just biked to the restaurant as well. Otherwise, I rode in someone's car. Still, none of the drivers did this "daily". Neither this nor sibling comment describe a "daily" situation. If you need a big sedan once a month and big SUV twice a year, just rent at those times and drive something more practical the rest of the year.
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by Symbiote on Saturday April 01, 2023 @06:41PM (#35404894)
* * *
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by Helmut10001 on Saturday April 01, 2023 @07:17AM (#35399298)
In Germany, the car tax includes the type of car and is adapted based on the accident rate for this type. Basically, you know ahead of time that you will pay more if you buy a car type that is often driven by reckless drivers.
Re:The average American has the same life expectancy as the ... by FooBarBizBazz on Monday April 03, 2023 @08:37AM (#35422456)
The existence of SUVs is a form of stochastic terrorism that affects everyone who doesn't own one.

I see two solutions. One is to use democracy and the State's supposed monopoly on violence to ban these weapons. The other is tit-for-tat: SUV drivers need to be killed at random until death rates reach statistical equality. Only then will the expected value to a safety-concious person of an SUV not exceed that of a sedan.

Right now, their thought process goes, "I will probably get into an accident, and when I do I want to dominate the other driver". That thought process needs to include counterbalancing considerations like, "yeah, but driving this will attract legal small-arms fire from Corolla drivers", or, "a knife-wielding spec-ops team of motorcyclists will be able to look up my license plate in the database and infiltrate my home while I sleep".

I'm joking but only kinda. This is literally life-and-death stuff. If people drive SUVs because they fear for their lives, then maybe they need to not drive SUVs because they fear for their lives.