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Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by lynx23 on Thursday March 30, 2023 @05:46AM (#35370215)
If the pandemic has demonstrated one thing, it is that I don't want to work in an environment where almost everyone is remote. It has become very clear that WFH workers take extra time off at random intervals during a day, and are typically hard to reach if you need to talk to them. Also, the smaller the children, the more likely it is they are subtly unavailable during work time.

This is not acceptable, even though I totally understand these people like that.

Some even have a 40 h job and admit openly that since they are doing WFH, they effectively have the whole day for their personal endeavors. Although in the story I am thinking about, there were no children involved. To the contrary, it is about a person 5 years away from retirement, and their boss has apparently given up wanting to legally fire them and trying to make them do meaningful work. So the solution was to push them off to WFH, and not think about the topic anymore.

Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by sublinear on Thursday March 30, 2023 @06:05AM (#35370369)
> are typically hard to reach if you need to talk to them

Why do you need them so highly available? Why can't you figure out what you need on your own by default without ruining the productivity of others? Encourage good documentation, ask fewer and more deliberate questions, etc.

What matters is that employees get their work done on schedule, attend and contribute what's necessary to meetings, and don't struggle to communicate well. It was never easy to get a hold of someone in the office either and you even had to waste time walking around to find out. Nothing has really changed except a lot of good for those who prefer wfh.

Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by dreadnip on Thursday March 30, 2023 @05:54AM (#35370274)
> This is not acceptable

Why? I'm a software engineer working in an agency and I work exactly like you're describing. If I feel like going on a run, I'll mark myself as AFK and go on a run. If I feel like closing my laptop at 3 and go shopping, I'll work later in the day when I'm not busy.

I still deliver on my deadlines and contribute more to the company than most colleagues. If you ping me on my phone I'll probably reply at any given time, and I put emphasis on written communication about issues I'm handling. Ideally, I've already written down all of the information you'd want to talk to me about.

This "style" works really well for me.

Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by lynx23 on Thursday March 30, 2023 @06:12AM (#35370411)
I am not a dev. I need to coordinate with my coworkers during the day. And since we dont have documentation for every miniscule step a team mate performs, we need to actually talk to each other from time to time.

I am sure as a dev, with sufficiently large work packages, WFH is just a breeze. But not in my job.

Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by ZephyrBlu on Thursday March 30, 2023 @06:22AM (#35370491)
What's your job and why can't you co-ordinate async?

"remote but still sync" feels like a major failure mode of being remote to me. Being able to work and communicate async is important for productivity in a remote environment.

Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by j45 on Thursday March 30, 2023 @06:55AM (#35370747)
Record async video.

Someone clicking and talking through a question or process at the time that works best so a meeting isn’t needed unless there’s disagreement.

It’s amazing.

Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by the_gipsy on Thursday March 30, 2023 @05:55AM (#35370287)
First off, there is a huge difference in being 100% available and not outputting work. They are not exclusive. I WFH with people with babies and kids and they absolutely exceed expectations.

Second, people in office can be just as unavailable or unproductive as from home. There are a million ways to slack off or be intermittently absent.

Third, it's a matter of gender equality too. If the childcare is split 50% then one simply cannot work like someone without kids, or one needs someone else to take care of the kids. If it's not split then 99% it's the women who stay at home while the men build their careers.

Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by lynx23 on Thursday March 30, 2023 @06:09AM (#35370393)
I expected just as much. So, gender "equality" of the spouse of my coworker is reason enough for my coworker to slack off, and me being coerced into keeping my mouth shut? No. People can demand things like that, but I am not playing that sort of game for them.

Your first two points are both ireelevant to me, because "can be" doesn't help in my daily work. All that counts, in this subjective report of mine, is my experience. And I tell you, WFH is less productive when it comes to working in a team, period.

Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by humanrebar on Thursday March 30, 2023 @06:30AM (#35370556)
I think underperforming coworkers is a problem regardless of the work situation. If the worker was slacking off while in office, would that be evidence that remote work should be mandated? Or would that be an incident to be corrected by HR and management?
Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by the_gipsy on Thursday March 30, 2023 @07:02AM (#35370803)
> So, gender "equality" of the spouse of my coworker is reason enough for my coworker to slack off

Put it the other way around: gender inequality of someone having a stay-at-home-wife is not reason enough for everyone else to be working the same. Having a stay-at-home-wife can't be the only way to equalize to childless workers.

> All that counts, in this subjective report of mine, is my experience.

My personal experience is the opposite. Office-goers perform worse, are the lesser talent left behind by those that can afford to leave for full WFH jobs, and try to compensate by putting in more office-chair-time and office politics, which just compounds to more problems for those that actually work.

There you go.

Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by j45 on Thursday March 30, 2023 @07:01AM (#35370801)
Offices allowed a form of pushibg work into other people. Email can do that too.

Daycare is a possibility instead of having one parent takes care of kids. If that’s not an option there are other creative child care options emerging that can work.

As for not working like someone without kids.. maybe I could learn to be twice as effective with half the time at work like having to be as a parent. Sometimes we can’t reframe work to work harder than we feel we should have to.

The bottom lines is off the life we want is uncommon it might take an uncommon approach and balance.

Many childless people are very inefficient with their time too as contrast.

Managing interruptions and organizing projects into very small steps to better be able to use tiny pockets of time after proving to be critical and a super power.

Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by Thlom on Thursday March 30, 2023 @08:10AM (#35371384)
Kids should go to child care so both mother and father are free to work.
Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by em-bee on Thursday March 30, 2023 @08:20AM (#35371483)
if they are old enough maybe. less than 3 years they should be at home with their parents.

in austria/germany kindergarten and school traditionally is half day. afternoon childcare is considered special and very expensive, if you can even find a place. finding a space in kindergarten can be a problem too.

many parents want to send their children to childcare but they simply can't

Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by Thlom on Thursday March 30, 2023 @09:17AM (#35372215)
In Norway most kids start kindergarten when they are 1-2 years old, it's not really a problem for most. Probably much more fun than hanging with their mother all day. Some have shorter days the first year(s) depending on parents work schedule etc. Kindergarten is heavily subsidised by the state, so that makes it affordable for everyone.
Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by em-bee on Thursday March 30, 2023 @10:53AM (#35373544)
more research on this topic is needed. i found at least one german report that claims that there are significant risk factors for early daycare that negatively affect the development of children and their relationship to the parents:

bad quality daycare, lack of motherly sensitivity, spending more than 20 hours a week in daycare, daycare before 2 years of age.

that report also claims that daycare generally affects the socioemotional competence of children, and that 25% of children that received full day daycare by age of 4 show significant problematic behavior even if the daycare is of good quality.

the quality of parental care is the strongest factor for the development of social and cognitive development.

another article claims that kindergarten does not have a positive effect before age 4.

on the other hand another article claims that children that receive some (but it doesn't say how much) external care in the first two years of life are less likely to later have psychological illnesses, and children that start kindergarten only at 4 are twice as likely to get sick. (personally i doubt that, but there it is, research is conflicting, and the jury is still out). but that same article also claims that things have improved over time. before the 90s, early daycare had a negative effect while after the effect became positive.

i am not saying that there is only one truth, but as a supporter of the attachment theory of parenting, i tend to side with the idea of keeping kids at home early, and only introducing daycare very gradually and i can also confirm some of this with my own experience.

Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by Thlom on Friday March 31, 2023 @03:52AM (#35383985)
Well, in Norway most children have been attending kindergarten from they are 1-2 years old the last 20 years or so, and I don't think there's been any reports of developmental issues in these kids.
Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by em-bee on Friday March 31, 2023 @05:37AM (#35384602)
not development issues, but mental healh issues. they have been rising in the last decade, in norway and probably many other countries too. and early kindergarten might well be a factor. there is not enough research to know if that is the case or where this comes from.
Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by em-bee on Thursday March 30, 2023 @01:47PM (#35376533)
it turns out that in germany, since 2013 parents have a legal right for a space for daycare for their children from the age of 1 year. that dramatically changes the availability and cost of such spaces.
Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by the_gipsy on Thursday March 30, 2023 @10:52AM (#35373540)
"free to work" oh, the irony.
Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by em-bee on Thursday March 30, 2023 @05:53AM (#35370271)
their boss has apparently given up wanting to legally fire them and trying to make them do meaningful work

so they didn't have any serious work assigned to them, and you wonder why they have the day free for themselves?

they are subtly unavailable during work time

when i am focusing on coding i am also unavailable. please don't expect me to be available any time you shout. i am not your personal assistant.

Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by flangola7 on Thursday March 30, 2023 @06:07AM (#35370374)
The thing that's not acceptable is micromanaging bosses and the attitude that business is more important than family.
Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by lynx23 on Thursday March 30, 2023 @06:16AM (#35370445)
If family is more important then your paycheck, why dont you resign?

Why should someone without a family invest more at work just because you consider work a secondary thing?

Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by humanrebar on Thursday March 30, 2023 @06:32AM (#35370578)
Because people have to pay bills and there aren't other options readily available. And I think it's OK for workers to try to change company culture over time while employed.
Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by horns4lyfe on Thursday March 30, 2023 @10:08AM (#35372934)
What a weird binary. Obviously someone’s children are more important to them than their job. Are you suggesting that’s a problem?
Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by manuelabeledo on Thursday March 30, 2023 @11:30AM (#35374258)
> If family is more important then your paycheck, why dont you resign?

It is.

> Why should someone without a family invest more at work just because you consider work a secondary thing?

This is a weird take.

Do you get mad at your coworkers when they take time off?

Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by lurking_swe on Friday March 31, 2023 @05:13AM (#35384459)
how do you think you were born and raised into this world? did your parent(s) quit their jobs after you were born, stop earning any income, and raise you in a cardboard box on the steeet? do you expect only millionaires to have children? jesus…have some empathy. Life is more than work work work.
Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by lynx23 on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @03:58AM (#35450813)
If you think family is more important then your job, then please just quit and dedicate yourself to what you think is more important.

But dont forget that family is an optional thing, that you decided to go for. Your coworkers without a family actually dont care how you spend your spare time. But if you are using your family as an excuse at work, we start to care, and see that you are trying to enforce unfairness.

Its your family, deal with it as you like, but dont take it with you to work.

Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by flangola7 on Wednesday April 05, 2023 @04:24AM (#35451017)
Do you even listen to yourself? What would your friends and family think? I couldn't come up with more soulless corporate apologetics if I tried. Quitting isn't realistic because bills still exist, so unless you plan on paying those for me you might want to keep your inhuman nonsense to yourself.

You sound like those American walmart managers that tried to set up in Germany and got BTFO because spineless business worship is not entertained.

Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by horns4lyfe on Thursday March 30, 2023 @10:04AM (#35372870)
God forbid someone isn’t at your beck and call every second the day. What is the point of that story? You admit the person you used as evidence was a bad example.
Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by 4k3aa4 on Thursday March 30, 2023 @10:40AM (#35373378)
> It has become very clear that WFH workers take extra time off at random intervals during a day

Bob Slydell: You see, what we're actually trying to do here is, we're trying to get a feel for how people spend their day at work... so, if you would, would you walk us through a typical day, for you?

Peter Gibbons: Yeah.

Bob Slydell: Great.

Peter Gibbons: Well, I generally come in at least fifteen minutes late, ah, I use the side door - that way Lumbergh can't see me, heh heh - and, uh, after that I just sorta space out for about an hour.

Bob Porter: Da-uh? Space out?

Peter Gibbons: Yeah, I just stare at my desk; but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch, too. I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.

Re:Early Remote Work Impacts on Family Formation by Der_Einzige on Thursday March 30, 2023 @01:41PM (#35376440)
You must love the taste of rubber very much to write like this. Particularly in a world where AI is about to take most skilled knowledge jobs.