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Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by withinboredom on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @05:28PM (#35363983)
I had a meeting last summer with some Americans and I jokingly said “meh, it’s a free country.” They all quickly pointed out that it wasn’t, any more.

I still have family there and still visit for nearly a month out of the year. The number of people running red lights has gone up significantly the last few visits. To the point where I feel like I’m driving in Bali and not the US. People are more rude now than they used to be, and scared.

It took months after moving here to brush off the fear you have living in the US. Fear of the government taking your kid because your neighbor gets pissed off, fear of car accidents, fear of getting pulled over, fear of getting stabbed/shot while walking down the street, fear of seeing someone else getting stabbed/shot, fear of getting fired for no reason, fear of going to the hospital or getting seriously sick because even if you survive, you’re going to be broke af.

I’ve had cops plant evidence in my car, I’ve been hit by trucks running red lights, I’ve gotten in a knife fight with a hobo, I’ve been shot at on the highway, I’ve been fired for no reason, I’ve gotten in a motorcycle accident that fucked me over seven ways to Sunday.

I haven’t had to worry about any of those things since leaving. Not a one.

Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by jfk13 on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @05:53PM (#35364306)
> I’ve had cops plant evidence in my car, I’ve been hit by trucks running red lights, I’ve gotten in a knife fight with a hobo, I’ve been shot at on the highway, I’ve been fired for no reason, I’ve gotten in a motorcycle accident that fucked me over seven ways to Sunday.

While I think I can understand many of your feelings about US culture, I'm a bit lost here. I was married to a US citizen and have lived a significant amount of time there, although never settled permanently. But I never experienced any of these things, nor felt an overwhelming need to worry about them. Is it something about your chosen lifestyle?

(For context, I have also lived and worked in a place where many of my neighbours employed armed guards to sit at their gates. And I watched from my office window as an armed bank robbery took place across the way. It ended with corpses lying in the street. And I was far more worried when dealing with police there than in any of my several US interactions with them. Think the US is bad? Well, in some ways it is... but it could be a lot worse.)

Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by throwaway29812 on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @05:53PM (#35364310)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdote

Your experience is not everyones experience. For example, the country you describe has 0% resemblance to the one I know. Why should your experience matter more than mine?

Are you actually proposing that your experiences are in some way typical ?

Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by withinboredom on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @06:24PM (#35364710)
Every American expat I know has a similar-ish process where they have to get over the fear/anxiety from living in the US. It’s a proper dinner topic. So yes, I assume it’s typical. Perhaps not 1:1, but there are always similar elements.

Edit to add: everyone says they never noticed it while living there. They only noticed it after the first few months/years when it was no longer present.

Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by kelipso on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @07:05PM (#35365167)
I have experienced this every time I go out if the country for two weeks and come back. Main thing I notice is the fear I sense in people whenever cops are nearby, and definitely the sense of this security state hovering over everyone. The feeling of personal freedom I have feels like it gets wrenched away whenever I enter the US. The talk of freedom in America is basically cope for having no personal freedom. Wherever you go there's some security fuck hovering around watching and waiting for you to fuck up.
Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by throwaway29812 on Thursday March 30, 2023 @02:53PM (#35377323)
> Main thing I notice is the fear I sense in people whenever cops are nearby, and definitely the sense of this security state hovering over everyone.

As someone that has lived in a police state before, I can't tell you that your feelings in the US aren't valid. They are yours alone. But perhaps travel somewhere were actual security forces search you randomly, harass you for no reason, etc. Experiences I have never had in the US, not once.

Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by kelipso on Thursday March 30, 2023 @10:55PM (#35381910)
You lived in a shithole, so what? 80% of a shithole is still a shithole.
Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by throwaway29812 on Friday March 31, 2023 @12:05PM (#35389153)
If you are going to shorthand entire countries as "shitholes" you should do so up front, so I don't waste my time responding to you.
Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by kelipso on Friday March 31, 2023 @12:51PM (#35389808)
I don't need to hear some bullshit about how hard you've had it in some random country, could not give a shit. At least we are not in Nazi Germany lol is not something I'll care about.
Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by throwaway29812 on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:41PM (#35391422)
It's called perspective. If you don't have it, fine. But I wouldn't loudly brag about how small your world is.
Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by kelipso on Saturday April 01, 2023 @10:41AM (#35400644)
I don't care about the "perspective" of some shithole country, just like I don't care about the perspective of some caveman complaining about how Ugg was mean to him or whatever.
Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by throwaway29812 on Monday April 03, 2023 @04:01PM (#35430414)
If you are going to say something like this:

> Main thing I notice is the fear I sense in people whenever cops are nearby, and definitely the sense of this security state hovering over everyone

You should know what that feels like, when it actually occurs. Similarly when someone rushes to declare their country has become "Nazi Germany", they ought to read a history book or two.

Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by quacked on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @07:43PM (#35365581)
I don't think that other countries have had their social fabric broken down quite as far as Americans have. A big part of American fear is knowing that nearly every single person you interact with that isn't a friend of yours doesn't really consider you their "people". No matter what ethnicity or social class you come from, if you leave the house you're going to spend a lot of time around people that don't feel any particular loyalty to you, and you end up always watching your back. Can't trust the cops, can't trust the poor people, can't trust the rich people, don't know your neighbors that well, just keep your eyes on your phone.

(This isn't just a skin color thing, even white people in America have such diverse in-cultures that it feels bizarre to speak to some of them. Go down five houses in a richer white neighborhood and you will not typically find neighbors that share really common understanding among one another.)

Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by throwaway29812 on Thursday March 30, 2023 @03:50PM (#35377941)
Does your anecdote include the immigrant experience? You are perhaps describing the experience of a Lebanese in Lebanon, or a German in Germany. What about everyone else?

> A big part of American fear is knowing that nearly every single person you interact with that isn't a friend of yours doesn't really consider you their "people".

The other side of this coin: America actually accepts people from other places. Most of the world will always see you as foreign if you come from abroad, even if you have lived there your whole life.

Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by quacked on Thursday March 30, 2023 @07:03PM (#35380069)
I don't think America accepts immigrants; in most places there's a pleasant apathy toward them. You're not really considered "American" by most born here unless you're born here and have the accent, and even then people are understood to belong primarily to their own ethnic group.

The American ideal is now a civic society that's not predicated on the idea of having a "people" who the nation-state is created for. Citizens still often think that they have a "people", but that delineation does not extend to all Americans. As an example a second-gen Mexican person is not particularly likely to consider me part of their "clan" even though we are both American. When everyone's foreign, no one is.

Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by throwaway29812 on Friday March 31, 2023 @12:06PM (#35389193)
> I don't think America accepts immigrants; in most places there's a pleasant apathy toward them. You're not really considered "American" by most born here

Not been my experience in NYC and other places. Quite the opposite. Also have you seen European integration of foreigners up close? Middle East? Asia?

My guess is no, because these places make it far more difficult to assimilate (if not impossible)

Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by quacked on Friday March 31, 2023 @01:00PM (#35389955)
I have seen non-American "integration" of foreigners, in Europe, Middle East, Asia, etc. In these places there are much more distinct mono-cultures relating to race than there are in the US. What is the dominant culture in NYC? Yuppie white Midwestern transplants? Orthodox Jews? Blue collar Italian and Irish descendents? American blacks? Mexican immigrants? All of these groups have very different standards for demeanor and behavior. In this way, these groups of "New Yorkers" collectively permit "assimilation" because there isn't really anything in particular to assimilate into. As long as you follow the law and spend a lot of money, people typically won't be that unkind to you or treat you in a way you'd recognize as a "foreigner", because they already treat everyone as a bit of a "foreigner".

I suspect we're disagreeing over what it means to "assimilate" or "be accepted as" one of an ethnic group. Imagine a stirring speech where a speaker says "I have dreamed of a respite from the trials our people have undergone". When the audience hears "our people", they are going to think of a certain group that they imagine themselves belonging to. In America, a miniscule fraction of the population thinks of "everyone who is legally an American" when they hear the phrase "our people".

However, some other place like Paris, the massive city-state of the white Franks, has a carefully guarded culture that they gatekeep as a majority ethnic group. You can live in France, and you can speak French, but you can't "become French" because many of the people who call themselves "French" think specifically of white Frankish/Gaulish/Roman descendents. That's just not happening in major American cities.

Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by throwaway29812 on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:48PM (#35391535)
> In these places there are much more distinct mono-cultures relating to race than there are in the US.

So, ghettos. I'm not saying there's not a "little Italy" in most American cities, but a Turkish person living in Germany their whole life is still Turkish. American in Japan, same. These places don't even allow the possibility of assimilation.

Or as my English friend put it, "there's a difference between tolerance and acceptance."

Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by ironick09 on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @09:14PM (#35366407)
Honestly this just sounds entirely made up. It seems surreal to me that you live your life in fear, of what? The United States? Either that or you’re extremely over exaggerating.
Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by throwaway29812 on Thursday March 30, 2023 @05:07PM (#35378833)
People work hard to justify their decisions after they made them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice-supportive_bias
Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by throwaway29812 on Thursday March 30, 2023 @02:51PM (#35377302)
> Every American expat I know has a similar-ish process where they have to get over the fear/anxiety from living in the US.

So your selection bias includes only people that have made the decision to leave. Do you not see the issue ?

Even if you didn't select into people who left presumably for a reason, this is still an anecdote. It's your opinion, your reality. It's not shared.

For example, I have an anecdote of living in the EU. It's cloudy 10 months out of the year, everywhere except in the south. No one told me that. Winters were harsh. Foreigners in general were not accepted, most social interactions were with other ex-pats. Salary was much lower and that limited my ability to buy property and save for retirement.

I could go on. But what I wouldn't do is broadcast all of this as if it's some kind of universal truth. It's just my experience.

Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by stametseater on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @07:32PM (#35365455)
> I’ve had cops plant evidence in my car, I’ve been hit by trucks running red lights, I’ve gotten in a knife fight with a hobo, I’ve been shot at on the highway, I’ve been fired for no reason, I’ve gotten in a motorcycle accident that fucked me over seven ways to Sunday.

Are you quite sure you're not misremembering an action movie for your own experiences? Living in America is not even remotely this exciting for most people. T-boned in intersections not just by a truck, but multiple trucks? Shootouts on the highway and knife fights with bums? Are you Neo from the Matrix?

Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by withinboredom on Thursday March 30, 2023 @02:40AM (#35368918)
To be fair, those are the least crazy things I’ve had happen to me or done in my lifetime. I should write a book…
Re:Senate Bill to Ban TikTok by throwaway29812 on Thursday March 30, 2023 @02:54PM (#35377342)
Are you still trying to present these experiences as typical ?