News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Modern software performance is firmly in its “beyond paro... by Jtsummers on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @12:12AM (#35352425)
> Most engineers are unfamiliar with how to improve their software’s performance, unfortunately.

Then they aren't "engineers" yet. Engineers can figure out how to use a profiler and how to improve performance of their software. Calling themselves "engineers" while being unable to do so should be a signal to everyone in their circle that they're incompetent hacks. They should at least be honest and give themselves an appropriate title, like "apprentice" or "intern" or "novice" or "student".

Re:Modern software performance is firmly in its “beyond paro... by saagarjha on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @12:29AM (#35352583)
Heinlein has a quote in one of his works that goes like this:

> A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyse a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.

I think all software engineers should be taught to be able to handle a profiler, poke around in a debugger, write a short correctness proof, and consider how an attacker might abuse the APIs they expose. I know a lot of people who are working to make this dream a reality right now. Until this happens, though, gatekeeping the definition of an engineer is inappropriate and does nothing to help improve the situation, because people are generally resistant to learning these things if you call them "incompetent hacks".

Re:Modern software performance is firmly in its “beyond paro... by Jtsummers on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @12:44AM (#35352712)
software profiler : software engineer :: ruler : <pretty much every other> engineer

Profilers are simple tools that every software engineer should be familiar with. They are literally just a way to measure performance of a software system. The basic ones do this by tracking time, or counting the number of times a block of code are entered. People have recreated them a million times (probably more) because they're so damned easy to create.

I'll take my hit for this one: If someone were to come up to me and say, "I'm an engineer, but I don't know how to measure the software I make." I'd think they were a hack, yes. If they instead were honest and said, "I'm a student studying to become an engineer ..." or "I'm a novice trying to become better..." then at least they're honest individuals and not liars or hacks. If that's gatekeeping, then so be it. They are not engineers yet if they can't use the software equivalent of a ruler.

Re:Modern software performance is firmly in its “beyond paro... by 908B64B197 on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @07:25PM (#35365379)
> If that's gatekeeping, then so be it. They are not engineers yet if they can't use the software equivalent of a ruler.

It's not gatekeeping.

Traditional engineering fields have somewhat standardized expectations around what a new grad should know. Same as law or Medicine/Nursing. When someone calls himself a Software Engineer, I too have an expectation of what they should know.

It's part of what made the scene where Katherine Johnson explains Euler's method as a little known math trick to a group of bewildered NASA engineers so funny. Everyone in that room would have been familiar with that concept as it's the first numerical method encountered in a differential equation class [0].

I would love some sort of standardized curriculum for Software Engineering. No exam, just a list of pre-requisite and concepts.

[0] The real work she did would have probably required a separate two hour documentary so I understand the filmmaker's decision here.

Re:Modern software performance is firmly in its “beyond paro... by saagarjha on Friday March 31, 2023 @12:04PM (#35389147)
Are you working on making this? If not, why are you looking down on people for not living up to a standard that does not exist yet?
Re:Modern software performance is firmly in its “beyond paro... by lapcat on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @09:27AM (#35356986)
> Heinlein has a quote in one of his works that goes like this:

>> A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyse a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.

“For as soon as the distribution of labour comes into being, each man has a particular, exclusive sphere of activity, which is forced upon him and from which he cannot escape. He is a hunter, a fisherman, a herdsman, or a critical critic, and must remain so if he does not want to lose his means of livelihood; while in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.” - Karl Marx

Re:Modern software performance is firmly in its “beyond paro... by saagarjha on Friday March 31, 2023 @12:09PM (#35389238)
Guess we know where the inspiration came from, heh
Re:Modern software performance is firmly in its “beyond paro... by toss1 on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @09:33AM (#35357057)
>>because people are generally resistant to learning these things if you call them "incompetent hacks".

Therefore we should hide the truth?

Sorry, it doesn't matter what field you are in, if you can only build stuff but you lack at least a solid familiarity with the tools and techniques of your trade that enable you to improve the performance of your product/service, you are simply not yet fully competent.

Period. Full stop.

If you can write code that compiles and runs, and even do it at large scale, that's nice. But have some humility and recognize that while this is definitely far better than nothing, it is NOT the end, it is merely the beginning, and you are not yet anything special.

Same applies for any field. It is really great go from nothing to being able to build functioning stuff, but it is only the beginning.

Sadly, many people get one year of experience 20 times over, and then get all full of themselves thinking this is the same as 20 years of of digging deep into the technology. Saving them the hard assessment does no one any good.

Re:Modern software performance is firmly in its “beyond paro... by saagarjha on Friday March 31, 2023 @12:10PM (#35389255)
They're not incompetent hacks. That's the truth.
Re:Modern software performance is firmly in its “beyond paro... by knighthack on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @10:57AM (#35358204)
These are engineers, not normal people.

It's fair to expect a professional cook to be able to cook well. Guarding their feelings for their incompetent cooking serves no purpose, since they become useless to their firm, and customers will want to avoid what they cook.

The same expectation should hold for professional engineers. If they are incompetent hacks, tell them they are. Guarding their feelings above describing reality to them only lets their illusion of competence to continue, and is what causes poor software, more incompetent incompetent engineers, and troubled users.

Re:Modern software performance is firmly in its “beyond paro... by saagarjha on Friday March 31, 2023 @12:06PM (#35389184)
They are not incompetent hacks. Stop calling them that! They were failed by a system that did not tell that they should learn how to do these things, and are struggling to catch up. You can point out areas of improvement without being mean.
Re:Modern software performance is firmly in its “beyond paro... by knighthack on Monday April 03, 2023 @01:11AM (#35418794)
Businesses and the commercial world have no obligation to anyone, much less to incompetent people.

It is the incompetent hacks who have failed themselves, by not being aware, and by not adapting and improving accordingly. The 'system' did not fail them.

The real world is not a college or school or university, where things are fed to you on your time. Employees must learn on their own time and other people's time. If they cannot keep up, then let's be real: they are incompetent.

By blaming the system, you take away the accountability and responsibility of incompetent people. If many better programmers were able to catch up, why can't they? We can't make excuses for incompetence.

Re:Modern software performance is firmly in its “beyond paro... by saagarjha on Monday April 03, 2023 @09:26AM (#35423151)
I work in the commercial world. It is critical that we help our engineers learn the skills they need to be successful, because we spend a lot of money on them. We value our employees because of their capability to learn things when necessary.
Re:Modern software performance is firmly in its “beyond paro... by 908B64B197 on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @07:28PM (#35365403)
> I know a lot of people who are working to make this dream a reality right now.

What are they doing?

> Until this happens, though, gatekeeping the definition of an engineer is inappropriate and does nothing to help improve the situation, because people are generally resistant to learning these things if you call them "incompetent hacks".

So they should instead be coddled?

How does it not help to simply say: Here's something everyone from a decent engineering program should know on graduation?

Re:Modern software performance is firmly in its “beyond paro... by saagarjha on Friday March 31, 2023 @12:04PM (#35389132)
Writing documentation and working with engineers to backfill these skills, rather than being grumpy about it on the internet ;)

> How does it not help to simply say: Here's something everyone from a decent engineering program should know on graduation?

This does.

> So they should instead be coddled?

This doesn't. I'll let you figure out what the difference is between these two.

Re:Modern software performance is firmly in its “beyond paro... by dogen on Wednesday March 29, 2023 @11:33PM (#35367582)
absolutely pathetic. i'm a bad hobbyist programmer and i learned 6502 assembly in order to do the kind of effects i want in my 8-bit demos and engineers with degrees aren't even willing to go a fraction that far?