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Re:Post-GPT Computing by Traubenfuchs on Friday March 24, 2023 @09:15AM (#35288612)
> Now you don’t need to hire junior devs and can just build the product of your dreams with very limited capital.

You are overestimating the vast amount of "software engineers" in the world. The overwhelming majority of us are just programmers, we are just gluing together CRUD spaghetti in the random language we grew up with. We don't care too much about work or a career. And most of us don't want to do more, we want to get a decent salary for our boring work. And we certainly do not want to be "solo founders", build products of our dreams or increase our productivity.

This way of living feels threatened now.

Re:Post-GPT Computing by muffles on Friday March 24, 2023 @09:38AM (#35288897)
> We don't care too much about work or a career. And most of us don't want to do more, we want to get a decent salary for our boring work.

Yikes. Productive work is not just a way to earn a living but also a way to achieve personal fulfillment and happiness. It's a means of creating value and contributing to society. A person who works just for the salary and does not find any meaning in his work is not living up to his full potential.

Re:Post-GPT Computing by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Friday March 24, 2023 @09:41AM (#35288940)
Maybe not, but they do get to eat, see a doctor, and enjoy some vacation time every now and then.

If I could make money doing something I found a lot of meaning in I'd be doing that instead. Thing is, we usually don't have that option.

Re:Post-GPT Computing by agentultra on Friday March 24, 2023 @09:46AM (#35289007)
Yikes. Your full potential isn't your work. We are all creative beings with deep emotional lives and connections to everything around us. And there are a ton of jobs in programming that pay well enough that you can live relatively well in a capitalist society. Some people find fulfillment in their families, neighbours, art, and dreams.

How many jobs in modern society are complete bullshit? A good deal of them, I would say. Why should people measure their happiness and self worth from these?

Re:Post-GPT Computing by muffles on Friday March 24, 2023 @09:57AM (#35289148)
I'm not suggesting your work is the only source of fulfillment or that one's career should be the sole measure of their self-worth. Rather, the importance of finding value and meaning in one's work is a complementary means of achieving personal fulfillment and happiness. It is still possible to find value and meaning in jobs that do not align with a person's interests or passions. The key is to find a balance between work and other aspects of life.
Re:Post-GPT Computing by Traubenfuchs on Friday March 24, 2023 @10:05AM (#35289225)
> Rather, the importance of finding value and meaning in one's work is a complementary means of achieving personal fulfillment and happiness.

I wholeheartedly agree! I do know a few people that love their jobs and I envy them to no end, they are inspiring, shining suns. But I remain firm on my opinion that this is far out of reach for most people.

Re:Post-GPT Computing by agentultra on Friday March 24, 2023 @10:17AM (#35289361)
Indeed it is given the preponderance of bullshit jobs.

Capitalism maximizes profits, not happiness. The market for software development jobs is much bigger for people who know popular frameworks and are content with validating forms, querying databases, aligning buttons, sending reports, etc. It's a lot easier (and rewarding) to find fulfillment elsewhere.

Re:Post-GPT Computing by Traubenfuchs on Friday March 24, 2023 @09:47AM (#35289029)
> also a way to achieve personal fulfillment and happiness

For all but a select few this is an unrealistic fairy tail. Most of us just want to make money to better enjoy our lives. We were given or acquired certain skills to make money, out of juvenile interests or opportunities we used. That doesn't mean we enjoy using those skills. It would be very hard to find any other job without taking a massive pay cut, investing huge amounts of money, time and effort only to have a high chance you won't like your new job as well.

I see no job or career I am interested in: I hate everything the moment it becomes work. And I am no unique snow flake. I am part of the majority with that.

https://www.wellable.co/blog/employee-engagement-statistics-....

Re:Post-GPT Computing by jwestbury on Friday March 24, 2023 @10:45AM (#35289713)
> A person who works just for the salary and does not find any meaning in his work is not living up to his full potential.

Things I enjoy don't pay enough to live a comfortable life. Tech does. So I do well enough at my job to pay for the things I enjoy, and hope I find enough edge cases at work to avoid burnout.

In a true post-scarcity society, where everyone has the freedom to choose a career based purely on fulfillment, your argument is excellent. Until then, however, it's not.

Re:Post-GPT Computing by the_only_law on Friday March 24, 2023 @10:48AM (#35289758)
Hell there are things I’d probably take a big pay cut to do, but it would take years of my life and large amounts of money just to retrain.
Re:Post-GPT Computing by dopeboy on Friday March 24, 2023 @09:19AM (#35288660)
I mean this in the least snarky, most sympathetic way possible: it's time to level up. Countless roles have had to do this, it's now our turn.
Re:Post-GPT Computing by falcor84 on Friday March 24, 2023 @09:36AM (#35288877)
This is easy to say, but I would argue that it's impossible to know what to level up in; the field is just moving too quickly now.

At this stage, the best advice I could formulate would be to learn LangChain and prompt engineering, but these too are fast moving targets, and who knows what's going to be relevant in 2024?

Re:Post-GPT Computing by dopeboy on Friday March 24, 2023 @09:45AM (#35288999)
I agree, it is disorienting.

I think the best thing one can do is learn how LLMs work, acquaint themselves with real implementations of it (ChatGPT, copilot), and then find ways to integrate these techniques into their companies.

Re:Post-GPT Computing by asdff on Friday March 24, 2023 @12:36PM (#35291608)
Or that could be a way to end up in the woods. What if you made a bet like this on metaverse being the future? You'd be wishing you hadn't now.

Instead, look at the job postings for titles you want. Note the skills in demand at more than one job. Focus on those skills. There's your set of skills the market currently is in demand of.

Re:Post-GPT Computing by dopeboy on Friday March 24, 2023 @01:27PM (#35292497)
Some of those skills that you see in those job postings today are devaluing due to tools like ChatGPT. Not all those skills and certainly not fundamental ones like communication and leadership. But if you see something like "writing CRUD endpoints for a Rails stack" everywhere, having that skill is no longer a differentiatior.

Don't pivot your career. Don't burn the boat and jump into AI. Just be aware of these tools and get good at what they're poor at.

Re:Post-GPT Computing by namaria on Friday March 24, 2023 @05:48PM (#35296111)
>Instead, look at the job postings for titles you want. Note the skills in demand at more than one job. Focus on those skills

While I agree with the sentiment, there is way too much noise in that channel. Job listings written by non-technical people just throwing key words together, recruiters detached from specific roles and companies trying signalling growth to mention just a few sources of confusion...

Re:Post-GPT Computing by godtoldmetodoit on Friday March 24, 2023 @12:07PM (#35291085)
I've been leveling up since I started as a helpdesk rep at 18, becoming a Windows sysadmin, then a junior dev, and now a senior dev. College was not an option for me for reasons totally outside of my control, as my parents decided to not do their taxes for a number of years and I was unable to get any financial aid (grants or loans) whatsoever.

I scratched and clawed, read tons of books, blogs, spent extra time polishing features beyond what was needed so I could learn new skills... but now I am a father of two young kids, with a wife. How long am I supposed to put in all this extra work? I'm likely slightly above average intelligence, but I'm far from being at the level where I could be an AI researcher... if I am even capable of doing the kind of math required there, it would require many years of learning.

GPT4 isn't going to replace me, but watching this space unfold really has me worrying about the versions that come out over the next 2-5 years.

A human is only so moldable, and while I am more than happy to learn new skills, I have no idea where to even start. What profession is safe? Where will the growth be in a field that will have equivalent or even near equivalent earning potential?

If GPT ends up getting to the point where it can replace me at my job, I really have a hard time thinking of a career path I could get into at this stage in life. It would need to be able to architect systems at a high level, write code to implement various features, communicate with stakeholders, document design decisions... if it can do that, it can do a whole hell of a lot of other jobs too.

Once it gets to that point, I don't think physical jobs will be that far behind on being automated either. We already have robots of all shapes and sizes (including bipedal), the main thing slowing down their deployment is that they aren't adaptable enough. With AGI, that changes. It will take a bit longer due to the capital requirements and factory build outs that would be needed.

Re:Post-GPT Computing by ilaksh on Friday March 24, 2023 @04:16PM (#35294841)
No jobs will be safe. In the very, very near future.

GPT-4 is a very capable systems architect and can also implement the code. There are a few tools available to put it in a debug loop. Writing documents is a walk in the park for GPT-4. Emails or Discord chats or even perfectly realistic voice conversations are completely doable (I have that on my website).

At this point it's about connecting things together and looping them properly to automate a very high portion of jobs.

I think the answer is not employment but rather production. Think of something you can leverage these AIs that would be interesting or useful to someone else or some business.

Beyond that things like UBI and generally better integration of technology into government is going to be critical for our survival. Especially decentralized technologies and real-world resource data.

Re:Post-GPT Computing by edgyquant on Friday March 24, 2023 @09:31AM (#35288803)
If your goal was to spend the rest of your life doing something you learn once and getting paid well for it you seriously picked the wrong industry. Engineers have been told to constantly learn new things, know multiple languages etc since the dawn of programming.

I’ve worked with tons of programmers like you describe. I’ve continued to tell them that simple UIs and CRUd interfaces to dbs are solved problems we should not be fighting with.

Re:Post-GPT Computing by michaelmior on Friday March 24, 2023 @09:38AM (#35288909)
> I’ve continued to tell them that simple UIs and CRUd interfaces to dbs are solved problems we should not be fighting with.

Maybe we shouldn't be, but it's still a problem that regularly needs to be solved.

Re:Post-GPT Computing by Traubenfuchs on Friday March 24, 2023 @09:42AM (#35288951)
...because of the limitless customization that sneaks into every growing software project. This limitless customization is also my last hope, maybe GPT-n won't be able to solve it as good as I do.
Re:Post-GPT Computing by Traubenfuchs on Friday March 24, 2023 @09:40AM (#35288927)
Which industry would you recommend? I hate studying and I especially hate everything software development related with a passion.

In any case, I need to refute your argument, in my work as software engineer spanning more than a decade, I have noticed zero deprecation of my skills (Java, SQL, HTML/JS/CSS) (while keeping them up to date!) until now and only had to learn a few new complementing skills (cloud, docker, SPA, Kubernetes). The only skill that got replaced might have been "Java application server management" since that got replaced by whatever docker runtime is en vogue at the moment. I have worked for the government and met PL1/Cobol mainframe programmers that refused to learn Java and still got paid generously for their long term expertise.

Re:Post-GPT Computing by edgyquant on Friday March 24, 2023 @10:54AM (#35289833)
I seriously doubt you’re writing the same kind of webapps you were a decade ago, if so you’re a minority. Regardless a decade doesn’t “refute” that the web itself is a total disruption of the way people wrote code prior. This industry is always changing paradigms and were constantly exposing more high level ways to instruct the processor.
Re:Post-GPT Computing by slfnflctd on Friday March 24, 2023 @11:00AM (#35289918)
> simple UIs and CRUd interfaces to dbs are solved problems

I can see how you might think that... until you start actually talking in depth with enough actual users and executives and trying to get them to agree on how all that stuff should work and what it should be capable of.

Most of the development process is about trying to wrangle abstract ideas about how business logic should be implemented/improved from flawed humans who aren't great at communicating those ideas. Your 'simple' CRUD app still often has to be highly customized by someone willing to do the difficult work of dealing with people. And that's before you even start getting into working with more regulated businesses.

Code monkeys/plumbers using 'outdated' tech who can deliver something that makes a workplace more efficient in the long run will continue to be in demand. There was enough functionality in software by the 1970s to handle the vast majority of business needs. Someone still has to understand those businesses needs (which ultimately have little to nothing to do with software) well enough to translate them into something that works. Whether it works for those who are using it is all that really matters.

Re:Post-GPT Computing by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Friday March 24, 2023 @09:39AM (#35288910)
Personally I'm excited whenever an opportunity to wholesale replace a part of my job comes up. I got in to technology because I wanted to make people's lives better, and in theory removing demands on their time does that.

The only problem is that we live in a system that directs the gains upward and any costs downwards, and in so doing creates perverse incentives against people welcoming their redundancy.

Re:Post-GPT Computing by Arubis on Friday March 24, 2023 @09:57AM (#35289143)
Hard agree.

Like sibling commenters, I love the idea of building something new with greater leverage. On an individual level, I'm looking forward to leveling up and finding new ways to be effective in my work.

Unlike sibling commenters, I don't think that should be our only option in life. It saddens me greatly that, given a new option to increase the effective output of a unit of time, we repeatedly choose as a society to profit monetarily (and with vast disparity in who benefits) rather than to give people more options in life than drilling on their jobs.

The industrial revolution promised people lives of relative leisure by replacing the need for much physical labor, but instead we concentrated the benefit to the few—and we keep making that same choice over and over.

Re:Post-GPT Computing by programmarchy on Friday March 24, 2023 @11:02AM (#35289950)
As a "software engineer", it's frustrating to work with the people you describe: people who "don't care too much". I'm looking forward to the purge.