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Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by insanitybit on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:17AM (#35262336)
I said what Chrome does. It has integrations. I have to use Chrome to log in at work, that's been the case at 3 companies I've worked at now. It is insane that Firefox doesn't see that as an obvious threat and build similar integrations.
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by m_0x on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:44AM (#35262860)
I'd really like you to expand in the forced to use Chrome at work. How does that work?

I'm also at corporate and they are really integrated with Edge. But it doesn't mean I can't do my work in Firefox (Which I currently use)

What do you mean by forced? What happens if you don't log in? What happens if you try to log in in firefox?

Edit: Ah I missed this from your original comment:

> Chrome is mandated at many companies because of its GSuite integration/ Context Aware Access.

You might be right, I'm too lazy to try this in Firefox.

Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by insanitybit on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:51AM (#35262955)
One of two scenarios.

1. The Endpoint Verification extension is used to ensure that the browser/ system is compliant before connecting to certain services such as any SSO.

2. Internal tools were tested with Chrome and to ensure that users were using an up to date tool they were gated on the user agent.

Chrome offers a host of endpoint management integrations that make it a far better choice for Enterprise than Mozilla. Mozilla could very easily build a management portal for Firefox or, even better, build an integration with various SSO providers.

Whereas Chrome really only integrates with GSuite Firefox could support Okta, O365, GSuite, and more, making it the de-facto corporate browser.

This isn't even complicated, this is one of many ideas I have that are easily within their ability, are taken straight from the Chrome playbook, leverages their singular asset, and their major competitive advantage (that they are "open").

Mozilla's CEO has to be fired. The incompetence and mismanagement is obscene.

Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by eganist on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @12:21PM (#35263420)
> What do you mean by forced? What happens if you don't log in? What happens if you try to log in in firefox?

Companies with application allow-lists simply don't allow non-Chrome browsers for use on their endpoints. That's the easiest way.

Companies without allow-lists may still block Firefox in other ways, though none quite as effective as above. Still, the block is usually on the endpoint, occasionally the proxy.

Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by echelon on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @12:11PM (#35263265)
BeyondCorp only working on Chrome. Every single tool and vendor integrated with BeyondCorp. Access to internal systems (including SSH) checked against BeyondCorp.

Using Firefox for anything was literally painful.

Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by idiotsecant on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @12:33PM (#35263559)
It's interesting how tribal the corporate IT universe can get - I am forbidden from installing Chrome, even if I wanted to.
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by sangnoir on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @01:04PM (#35263992)
Do you use ActiveDirectory for identity? In my experience, most corporates are either AD + Windows ,or Google Workspace + Chrome
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by idiotsecant on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @07:43PM (#35268628)
Yep, AD + Windows here.
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by dblohm7 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @12:33PM (#35263570)
Building similar integrations will require, in your words, "focusing elsewhere." You can't have both.
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by jacobr1 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:32PM (#35265235)
Yes - but that would be as a extension/integration with their browser asset - not a random unrelated project.
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by dralley on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:41PM (#35265374)
You can say this, but every time Mozilla does an integration with their browser asset - like Mozilla VPN or Pocket - people scream at them for adding "pointless bloat" to the browser.

I fail to see how your proposal would end differently.

Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by insanitybit on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @06:53PM (#35268164)
All they have to do is implement the Endpoint Verification plugin. It's open source and any attempt from Google to prevent that would be obviously anti-competitive.
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by insanitybit on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @07:05PM (#35268290)
I'm advocating for code that would be implemented entirely in the browser or via an extension...
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by rglullis on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:00PM (#35264779)
Do you know that Ubuntu's number one issue in their bug tracker is "Microsoft has a monopoly on the desktop market"?

Plenty of people have to use Windows at work, it doesn't mean that MacOS (or Ubuntu) is a failure, or that they lack focus, or that this would change if alternatives just went to implement what you need.

The truth is that Google has built a formidable moat around their browser, and even if Mozilla put it as their one mission to catch up, they wouldn't be able to. Also, the first second that Firefox became a credible threat to Google would be the time that Google would drop all the money that they put into Mozilla.

Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by ChuckNorris89 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @02:44PM (#35265425)
>Do you know that Ubuntu's number one issue in their bug tracker is "Microsoft has a monopoly on the desktop market"? Plenty of people have to use Windows at work

Funny, I had to use Ubuntu 22.04 at my previous backend job and hated every minute of it thanks to snap, gnome, apt, wayland, hibernate, touchpad, and other issues that made me pull my hair out and loose several work hours in tinkering just to attempt to fix them so I can be productive at work. Maybe I was also horribly unlucky, who knows, but IMHO Ubuntu has went from the go-to to being the worst possible Linux distro. I was daily driving Ubuntu 10.XX in college and it wasn't this bad.

I get Canonical wants Ubuntu as the competitor for Windows, and they can can cry "wagh! Microsoft monopoly! wagh!" as much as they want, but Ubuntu aint it chief. Linux Mint and others could do it better if they had Canonical's pockets.

Similar for Firefox. Basic stuff that's standard in Chrome and Edge, like translation (I live in an EU country who's language I don't fully master) or spell-check, need to be downloaded as extensions/plugins in Firefox, and separate for each language, and the end quality of the Firefox spellcheck still sucks majorly compared to what Chrome has out of the box.

I get it, we should support Ubuntu and Firefox because freedom and all that, but I can't when the quality of the products and consumer experience is abysmal compared to the paid competition.

Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by hgsgm on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @03:48PM (#35266228)
MS's pockets are big enough for Ubuntu, Mint, and a dozen more.
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by rglullis on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @06:54PM (#35268178)
I was an (X)ubuntu user since at least 2009, I also stopped using it and went for Debian/Nix about three years ago.

> I get it, we should support (...) because freedom and all that, but I can't when the quality (...) is abysmal compared to the paid competition.

Why not? Supporting open alternatives does not mean you exclusively need to use them.

Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by insanitybit on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @07:06PM (#35268302)
Do you know how Ubuntu has managed to increase its share? Focusing on enterprise and server use cases. Exactly what I'm suggesting Mozilla does.
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by rglullis on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @08:28PM (#35269015)
You missed one key detail: Canonical never depended on Microsoft's money to operate. Mozilla does depend on Google's money for everything, including the R&D resources that would be required for them to develop the use cases that you are suggesting.
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by insanitybit on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @09:32PM (#35269442)
They just spent 30M dollars on this AI thing lol it wouldn't cost 20% of that to do what I'm saying
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by rglullis on Thursday March 23, 2023 @06:58AM (#35272783)
First, speaking from experience of someone who worked in a (failed) project that wanted to build a "Enterprise version of ChromeOS", based on Firefox and Linux: I love this naive confidence to predict how much it would cost to bring a whole new lot of features to a product (Firefox/Gecko) that is known for being extremely difficult to refactor.

Second, You really don't get it, do you? They will not spend money on anything that might actually threaten Google's dominance. They get 30M to play with AI is because they don't get to spend anything on making Firefox a strong alternative for Chrome. If they did, Google will take all their money away and then it's game over for them.

Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by hizanberg on Thursday March 23, 2023 @07:35AM (#35273116)
That’s categorically false, their revenue is tied to their userbase, if they were more popular Google would cut them a larger check like they do for Safari.
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by rglullis on Thursday March 23, 2023 @09:02AM (#35274058)
According to a contract, which can be renegotiated or simply not renewed.

Google does not pay Apple for "access to the user base". Google pays Apple so that Apple does not try to get into the search engine space and compete with Google.

They also pay Mozilla as a way to keep controlled opposition and a (relatively) inexpensive way of avoid threats of lawsuits like the one that MS had in the past. But they don't need to. If Mozilla for any reason decided to stop conforming to this game and went on to actually fight against Google, Google would drop them in a heartbeat. And who would Mozilla go for, Bing? DDG?

Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by insanitybit on Friday March 24, 2023 @09:00AM (#35288451)
If you think it costs 30 million dollars to write a blessed extension that implements the Endpoint Verification logic... lol

> If they did, Google will take all their money away and then it's game over for them.

Because of the position they put themselves in. Also you underestimate how much cash they have.

Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by rglullis on Saturday March 25, 2023 @07:04AM (#35301449)
In terms of ROI: How much do you think they would get in market share if they implemented it?
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by Animats on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @03:27PM (#35265973)
If your personal Google account is cancelled, do you become unemployable?
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by Jarwain on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @03:32PM (#35266035)
Wouldn't they have a corporate suite account used to log in?
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by hgsgm on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @03:47PM (#35266211)
And if they catch you using it they might ban the company you work for by association.
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by insanitybit on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @06:53PM (#35268173)
Yes, that should be obvious. I can't imagine what the parent was thinking.
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by Animats on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @07:45PM (#35268652)
Can you have more than one Google account per phone? Can you have a Cloud Identity Account without a Personal Account?
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by insanitybit on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @09:34PM (#35269453)
Yes and yes
Re:Mozilla.ai: Investing in Trustworthy AI by XorNot on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @04:36PM (#35266735)
I have never encountered this. Everything I've had to use for work works with Firefox just fine.

Chrome gets put on corporate machines because the IT people use Chrome. None of these people seem to regard ad blocking as an internal security feature yet.