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Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by harimau777 on Sunday March 12, 2023 @10:23PM (#35130058)
I think it's less about spite and more about a desire for justice.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by xeromal on Sunday March 12, 2023 @10:27PM (#35130100)
Isn't spite just wanting that version of karma or justice but hurting yourself in the process. If we let these banks collapse it's definitely going to hurt lower income people more than wealthy people so to me that is 100% spite
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by HWR_14 on Sunday March 12, 2023 @11:09PM (#35130484)
No. Spite is hurting yourself to hurt someone else. A desire for karma is willing to hurt yourself for justice. They look very similar, but are different.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by Godel_unicode on Sunday March 12, 2023 @11:55PM (#35130806)
> Spite is hurting yourself to hurt someone else.

That is incorrect, spite is seeking the deliberate harm of another. It’s possible for spite to include hurting yourself to inflict it, but that’s not in any way necessary.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by HWR_14 on Monday March 13, 2023 @12:27AM (#35131064)
Sure, and karma doesn't require hurting yourself either. I meant in the specific case we were discussing, in which harming yourself was already baked into the situation. I admit I could have been clearer initially and am sorry I spoke clumsily.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by twblalock on Sunday March 12, 2023 @10:28PM (#35130107)
Then people need to slow down and think about what justice really is -- is hurting the rich really justice if everyone else gets hurt too?
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by Godel_unicode on Sunday March 12, 2023 @11:59PM (#35130847)
Justice is the idea that people are treated equally, impartially, and fairly under a set of standards. If someone breaks the rules justice is them getting the same punishment anyone else would get, concerns about externalities don’t come into it.

Is everyone getting hurt ideal? No. But that’s a different question than is it justice.

IMO this is what happened during 2008. The government tried to minimize harm at the expense of justice, and people are angry because they don’t realize how bad it could have been.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by f-securus on Monday March 13, 2023 @01:17AM (#35131406)
If the two options are a) everybody except the rich get hurt and b) everybody including the rich get hurt, then I think the majority of Americans would go with b.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by aceazzameen on Monday March 13, 2023 @08:59AM (#35135097)
B is definitely where we're at. Many Americans are tired of watching the rich get bailed out with socialism-for-the-rich-not-for-the-poor. Meanwhile the not-rich continue to struggle in every aspect of life, from food to housing. And blame is placed squarely on the rich, who have a greater voice in the elected government.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by CapstanRoller on Monday March 13, 2023 @09:28AM (#35135437)
>socialism-for-the-rich-not-for-the-poor.

That's called "capitalism". Socialism has nothing to do with it.

Please try not to muddle basic terminology like this. It makes discourse harder for everyone.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by hellojesus on Monday March 13, 2023 @01:30PM (#35139189)
No. That is called crony capitalism. True capitalism would let these banks burn and allow those who saved or have capital buy them up. No gov intervention allowed.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by CapstanRoller on Monday March 13, 2023 @02:04PM (#35139804)
No, it's just called "capitalism". The thing you call cronyism is a core feature, not a bug. Under capitalism, the capitalist class advances its own interests.

Please stop trying to redefine basic terminology to suit your agenda.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by hellojesus on Monday March 13, 2023 @06:24PM (#35143910)
I disagree with you.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by CapstanRoller on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @12:52AM (#35147591)
OK, disagree all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that specific words still have specific meanings.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by hellojesus on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @06:22PM (#35159905)
Yes, but we're disagreeing about the specific meaning of words. Capitalism describes an economy where capital is the mechanism through which goods and services are allocated. It is not the partnership of public and private entities, as you suggest. That would be crony capitalism.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/crony%20capitalis...

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by CapstanRoller on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @04:49AM (#35165551)
That page describes how "crony capitalism" is used colloquially. Dictionaries are not a great source for determining canonical meaning of complex political terminology.

I argue that usage of the term "crony capitalism" is itself a form of capitalist ideology.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by bumby on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @08:27AM (#35167201)
Dictionaries are not a great source for determining canonical meaning of complex political terminology.

Yet a Marxist site is used as an unbiased source. Oh, the irony.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by CapstanRoller on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @02:31PM (#35172653)
>Yet a Marxist site is used as an unbiased source.

You're welcome to present a capitalist site as a source for the definition you prefer, and I'd be happy to discuss that.

Just don't use a dictionary, please! It's the wrong tool for the job here, regardless of political leanings.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by bumby on Monday March 13, 2023 @07:35PM (#35144859)
Please give your definition of capitalism because it feels a little muddled itself.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by CapstanRoller on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @12:51AM (#35147585)
Capitalism

The socio-economic system where social relations are based on commodities for exchange, in particular private ownership of the means of production and on the exploitation of wage labour.

Wage labour is the labour process in capitalist society: the owners of the means of production (the bourgeoisie) buy the labour power of those who do not own the means of production (the proletariat), and use it to increase the value of their property (capital). In pre-capitalist societies, the labour of the producers was rendered to the ruling class by traditional obligations or sheer force, rather than as a “free” act of purchase and sale as in capitalist society.

Value is increased through the appropriation of surplus value from wage labour. In societies which produce beyond the necessary level of subsistence, there is a social surplus, i.e. people produce more than they need for immediate reproduction. In capitalism, surplus value is appropriated by the capitalist class by extending the working day beyond necessary labour time. That extra labour is used by the capitalist for profit; used in whatever ways they choose.

The main classes under capitalism are the proletariat (the sellers of labour power) and the bourgeoisie (the buyers of labour power). The value of every product is divided between wages and profit, and there is an irreconcilable class struggle over the division of this product.

https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/c/a.htm

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by bumby on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:59PM (#35156741)
It probably doesn't need to be said, but it's pretty obvious the bias in that definition.

There is no singular definition of capitalism, but many others would differ on the distinction you've drawn from earlier posts. E.g., a system based on the reinvestment of excess profits does not necessarily equate to crony-capitalism. It seems your issue is with the person using the word "socialism" to describe a social ill of crony capitalism. But there is a distinction there that is being muddled in the conversation.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by CapstanRoller on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @05:40PM (#35159229)
Can you define "crony capitalism" and explain how it's not a fallacious no-true-Scotsman defense of "real capitalism" (or whatever term you prefer)?
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by hellojesus on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @06:25PM (#35159949)
Capitalism disallows private and public collusion beyond what is necessary to ensure public goods, defined by those gods which are nonexcludable and nonrivalous.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by CapstanRoller on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @07:11PM (#35160710)
How does capitalism "disallow" any of that? Where is your evidence that this is a stated goal under capitalism?

I think you're confusing "free market" USAmerican right-Libertarian ideology with capitalism itself.

Capitalism, simply put, is defined as private ownership over the means of production, and the people who have that ownership are called the capitalist class. None of that precludes any sort of collusion.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by bumby on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @09:28PM (#35162449)
You’re confusing what is a central tenet and what may occur as an outcome of a poorly executed version of the principle. By that same logic, tyrannical despots could be argued as a stated goal of socialism.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by CapstanRoller on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @04:50AM (#35165558)
>You’re confusing what is a central tenet and what may occur as an outcome of a poorly executed version of the principle.

Where does capitalism define "non cronyism" as a central tenet? Can you point to a working example of "non-crony" capitalism?

>By that same logic, tyrannical despots could be argued as a stated goal of socialism.

A central tenet of socialism is that is rejects despotism and tyranny. Supporters of socialism explicitly reject tyrannical behavior and seek to root it out if it appears.

On the other hand, capitalists cheer every time they wield state power to enrich themselves and excuse it as "just business".

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by bumby on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @10:12AM (#35168599)
Competition is a central tenet of capitalism. Collusion, particularly collusion between govt and private enterprise, aims to reduce competition. So it follows that such collusion is a perversion that goes against the central tenets of capitalism. Which is why is gets a separate name, like crony capitalism, to differentiate it.

It’s no different than saying “dictatorial socialism”. The fact that a rather simple distinction has to be explained multiple times by multiple people becomes a chore and a Sisyphean task when it is clear someone doesn’t want to acknowledge the difference.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by yamtaddle on Monday March 13, 2023 @01:42PM (#35139415)
It's literally in the name. Capital-ism. I'm not sure how it could be clearer. It'd be weird if a system so-named didn't favor capital owners.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by xeromal on Monday March 13, 2023 @09:53AM (#35135715)
I don't think those are the only two options though. b) The rich now have less billions but still billions and everyone else now has to budget even harder.