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Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by bumby on Monday March 13, 2023 @07:35PM (#35144859)
Please give your definition of capitalism because it feels a little muddled itself.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by CapstanRoller on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @12:51AM (#35147585)
Capitalism

The socio-economic system where social relations are based on commodities for exchange, in particular private ownership of the means of production and on the exploitation of wage labour.

Wage labour is the labour process in capitalist society: the owners of the means of production (the bourgeoisie) buy the labour power of those who do not own the means of production (the proletariat), and use it to increase the value of their property (capital). In pre-capitalist societies, the labour of the producers was rendered to the ruling class by traditional obligations or sheer force, rather than as a “free” act of purchase and sale as in capitalist society.

Value is increased through the appropriation of surplus value from wage labour. In societies which produce beyond the necessary level of subsistence, there is a social surplus, i.e. people produce more than they need for immediate reproduction. In capitalism, surplus value is appropriated by the capitalist class by extending the working day beyond necessary labour time. That extra labour is used by the capitalist for profit; used in whatever ways they choose.

The main classes under capitalism are the proletariat (the sellers of labour power) and the bourgeoisie (the buyers of labour power). The value of every product is divided between wages and profit, and there is an irreconcilable class struggle over the division of this product.

https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/c/a.htm

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by bumby on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:59PM (#35156741)
It probably doesn't need to be said, but it's pretty obvious the bias in that definition.

There is no singular definition of capitalism, but many others would differ on the distinction you've drawn from earlier posts. E.g., a system based on the reinvestment of excess profits does not necessarily equate to crony-capitalism. It seems your issue is with the person using the word "socialism" to describe a social ill of crony capitalism. But there is a distinction there that is being muddled in the conversation.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by CapstanRoller on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @05:40PM (#35159229)
Can you define "crony capitalism" and explain how it's not a fallacious no-true-Scotsman defense of "real capitalism" (or whatever term you prefer)?
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by hellojesus on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @06:25PM (#35159949)
Capitalism disallows private and public collusion beyond what is necessary to ensure public goods, defined by those gods which are nonexcludable and nonrivalous.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by CapstanRoller on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @07:11PM (#35160710)
How does capitalism "disallow" any of that? Where is your evidence that this is a stated goal under capitalism?

I think you're confusing "free market" USAmerican right-Libertarian ideology with capitalism itself.

Capitalism, simply put, is defined as private ownership over the means of production, and the people who have that ownership are called the capitalist class. None of that precludes any sort of collusion.

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by bumby on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @09:28PM (#35162449)
You’re confusing what is a central tenet and what may occur as an outcome of a poorly executed version of the principle. By that same logic, tyrannical despots could be argued as a stated goal of socialism.
Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by CapstanRoller on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @04:50AM (#35165558)
>You’re confusing what is a central tenet and what may occur as an outcome of a poorly executed version of the principle.

Where does capitalism define "non cronyism" as a central tenet? Can you point to a working example of "non-crony" capitalism?

>By that same logic, tyrannical despots could be argued as a stated goal of socialism.

A central tenet of socialism is that is rejects despotism and tyranny. Supporters of socialism explicitly reject tyrannical behavior and seek to root it out if it appears.

On the other hand, capitalists cheer every time they wield state power to enrich themselves and excuse it as "just business".

Re:Joint Statement by the Department of the Treasury, Federa... by bumby on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @10:12AM (#35168599)
Competition is a central tenet of capitalism. Collusion, particularly collusion between govt and private enterprise, aims to reduce competition. So it follows that such collusion is a perversion that goes against the central tenets of capitalism. Which is why is gets a separate name, like crony capitalism, to differentiate it.

It’s no different than saying “dictatorial socialism”. The fact that a rather simple distinction has to be explained multiple times by multiple people becomes a chore and a Sisyphean task when it is clear someone doesn’t want to acknowledge the difference.