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Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by braingenious on Saturday March 11, 2023 @05:13PM (#35113326)
I’m not very knowledgeable on this topic, so I have a legit question about all of this:

How is pausing withdrawals not blatant currency manipulation? If I had USDC and lost all faith in it yesterday, shouldn’t I be allowed to cash out today?

Also, if they’ve got many billions in cash, why would losing access to a sliver of it justify shutting down withdrawals?

“Trust us, it’s worth a dollar! Or don’t trust us! It doesn’t matter because you don’t have any choice but to hold USDC until we deem it advantageous to us to allow you to exchange them for real money!”

Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by capableweb on Saturday March 11, 2023 @05:20PM (#35113385)
Imagine that you use a currency made by a specific company, lets say it's called PaypalCoin. Part of the value of the currency is that the company manages it, part of the risk is that a company manages it. So you'll only be able to exchange it for X as long as Paypal say you can exchange it for X. This is part of what PaypalCoin is, so if you use it, you should be aware of this.

This is basically what USDC is, and Circle is the organization that controls it. It is not a decentralized currency, it's a centralized digital currency. If Circle blacklists you and your funds, you won't be able to trade it for USD in the traditional exchanges, you'd only be able to do it P2P. This has happened already, with Tornado Cash, so it has precedent, not something I'm making up.

> USDC is issued and redeemed in accordance with Centre policies including the Centre Blacklisting Policy. Centre reserves the right to block the transfer of USDC to and from an address on chain as permitted under the Centre Blacklisting Policy.

https://www.circle.com/en/legal/usdc-terms & https://www.centre.io/hubfs/PDF/Centre_Blacklisting_Policy_2...

If Circle says you cannot exchange your USDC for USD, then that's the rule. If you don't want that possibility, you wouldn't use USDC in the first place.

Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by easrng on Saturday March 11, 2023 @09:23PM (#35115729)
If Circle blacklists you and your funds you can't do anything with them at all afaik.
Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by capableweb on Sunday March 12, 2023 @07:15AM (#35118779)
That's not true. They still live on a blockchain not controlled by them, so you can still send them around from account to account. You won't be able to get USD from them though via a CEX.
Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by charcircuit on Sunday March 12, 2023 @01:42PM (#35123364)
The smart contract on the blockchain allows them to blacklist addresses upon request from law enforcement.
Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by easrng on Sunday March 12, 2023 @02:17PM (#35123953)
The contract has a blacklist built in, see for yourself: https://etherscan.io/address/0xa2327a938febf5fec13bacfb16ae1... (and you can see the logs of them blacklisting and unblacklisting addresses here: https://etherscan.io/txs?a=0x5db0115f3b72d19cea34dd697cf412f...)

It inherits from Blacklistable which allows a blacklister to blacklist accounts, and almost all functions on the contract have the notBlacklisted modifier which prevents them from being called by blacklisted accounts.

  /**
   * @title Blacklistable Token
   * @dev Allows accounts to be blacklisted by a "blacklister" role
   */
  contract Blacklistable is Ownable {
      address public blacklister;
      mapping(address => bool) internal blacklisted;
  
      event Blacklisted(address indexed _account);
      event UnBlacklisted(address indexed _account);
      event BlacklisterChanged(address indexed newBlacklister);
  
      /**
       * @dev Throws if called by any account other than the blacklister
       */
      modifier onlyBlacklister() {
          require(
              msg.sender == blacklister,
              "Blacklistable: caller is not the blacklister"
          );
          _;
      }
  
      /**
       * @dev Throws if argument account is blacklisted
       * @param _account The address to check
       */
      modifier notBlacklisted(address _account) {
          require(
              !blacklisted[_account],
              "Blacklistable: account is blacklisted"
          );
          _;
      }
  
      /**
       * @dev Checks if account is blacklisted
       * @param _account The address to check
       */
      function isBlacklisted(address _account) external view returns (bool) {
          return blacklisted[_account];
      }
  
      /**
       * @dev Adds account to blacklist
       * @param _account The address to blacklist
       */
      function blacklist(address _account) external onlyBlacklister {
          blacklisted[_account] = true;
          emit Blacklisted(_account);
      }
  
      /**
       * @dev Removes account from blacklist
       * @param _account The address to remove from the blacklist
       */
      function unBlacklist(address _account) external onlyBlacklister {
          blacklisted[_account] = false;
          emit UnBlacklisted(_account);
      }
  
      function updateBlacklister(address _newBlacklister) external onlyOwner {
          require(
              _newBlacklister != address(0),
              "Blacklistable: new blacklister is the zero address"
          );
          blacklister = _newBlacklister;
          emit BlacklisterChanged(blacklister);
      }
  }
Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by nevi-me on Saturday March 11, 2023 @05:30PM (#35113469)
One could ask whether halting trading of a stock is manipulation or not.

Some risks arise mostly out of urgency, and not having countermeasures could have catastrophic results which otherwise would have been avoided by pausing the process. If Circle were operating as a fractional reserve bank where it borrowed from you by virtue of a positive bank balance, lent me 80% of that, and only kept 20%; pausing honouring withdrawals would likely be illegal.

My view of this is that it's unrealistic to expect a company to store 100% of its assets in immediately avaialable deposits whereas international regulations that apply to banks require ~30 days of liquid supply.

In this case, the legal contract between Circle and its depositors (holders of USDC) is that it'll exchange 1:1.

intrinsically, Circle seems to demonstrate that this contract isn't yet broken, but they can't continue to honour that agreement over a weekend when there's uncertainty of which avenue those funds will come from.

The selling pressure is purely from the secondary market where you're selling me USDC and I'm giving you 0.95 USD.

> Also, if they’ve got many billions in cash, why would losing access to a sliver of it justify shutting down withdrawals?

Because those billions are in T-bills that have to first be sold. And the "cash on hand" is ultimately with banks that are holding a fraction of it.

> “Trust us, it’s worth a dollar! Or don’t trust us! It doesn’t matter because you don’t have any choice but to hold USDC until we deem it advantageous to us to allow you to exchange them for real money!”

Well, "we're enabling redemption on Monday" doesn't equate to the above.

If my pastry shop runs out of already baked goods during the AM peak, I can only ask my customers to wait for me to finish baking more. If there was a pastry regulation, its review would say that I should start baking more pastries in future.

Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by braingenious on Saturday March 11, 2023 @05:53PM (#35113633)
>If my pastry shop runs out of already baked goods during the AM peak

If your pastry shop had 40 billion donuts, and you claim that 10 billion of those donuts are available for sale immediately, do you close your shop when you lose 3.3 billion of them, leaving you with only 6.7 billion donuts that are still sitting there?

Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by nightmarish on Saturday March 11, 2023 @06:37PM (#35113963)
Yea because it’s way better for the customers to believe the illusion that I have 40 billion than to find out I only had let’s say… 5
Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by paulryanrogers on Saturday March 11, 2023 @08:24PM (#35115218)
Wait, what value is there in the illusion? Some customers may be unable to wait, regardless of a run or not. And if they cannot count on you now then at least they would know to avoid you in the future.
Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by 323 on Saturday March 11, 2023 @05:31PM (#35113474)
They didn't pause anything. The US banks did, by not working in the weekend (for large sums).

If you had 1 billion USD with your favorite US bank, that would be paused too right now.

Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by braingenious on Saturday March 11, 2023 @05:50PM (#35113612)
I’m hearing that you can’t even use USDC to exchange for bitcoin/ETH on Coinbase right now. What does converting between types of crypto have to do with banks? Those transactions should in theory have nothing to do with a banking transaction.

It seems like they’re simply forcing people to hold USDC, full stop, and are blaming banks for their decision to do so.

Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by 323 on Saturday March 11, 2023 @06:12PM (#35113772)
> I’m hearing that you can’t even use USDC to exchange for bitcoin/ETH on Coinbase right now.

That would be the fault of Coinbase, not Circle or USDC. On other exchanges, like Bitstamp, you can freely buy/sell your USDC to crypto/fiat.

Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by capableweb on Saturday March 11, 2023 @05:58PM (#35113662)
USDC is supposedly backed by USD. If Cirle/Centre doesn't have access to enough USD, they cannot maintain the peg of USDC.
Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by braingenious on Saturday March 11, 2023 @06:02PM (#35113689)
What does that have to do with exchanging for crypto?

If I move USDC from one wallet to another, and someone else moves bitcoin from one wallet to another in exchange for that USDC, that transaction happens entirely on the blockchain and at no point involves a bank or a peg.

The only reason to disable that function is to force people to hold USDC.

Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by everfree on Saturday March 11, 2023 @06:56PM (#35114150)
For better or worse, Coinbase does not have USDC trading pairs. They have USD trading pairs, which if you have USDC you're typically expected to access by redeeming your USDC for USD and then using the USD trading pairs. But since USDC to USD redemption is halted for now, you effectively cannot trade USDC for any other crypto on Coinbase.

However, other exchanges actually do have USDC markets. If you deposit your USDC with them, then you can directly trade order books on USDC/USD, BTC/USDC, and ETH/USDC, which function regardless of the lack of redemption and regardless of the actual market price of USDC.

If Coinbase had USDC trading pairs like other exchanges do, it would avoid the issue you outlined in your comment, but it would also fragment liquidity across two markets that are effectively identical during business-as-usual periods where redemptions function properly.

Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by danielvf on Saturday March 11, 2023 @08:21PM (#35115197)
That's not true, Coinbase has active USDC/USDT, USDC/EUR, and USDC/GBP pairs. I've traded on them overnight. They just disabled the 1-1 conversion with USD.
Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by everfree on Saturday March 11, 2023 @08:32PM (#35115291)
My bad. Looks like they added those pairs in 2021 and I didn't notice (though it looks like you have to "opt out of the USD and USDC unified experience" in order to access them). I edited my comment accordingly.
Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by nikanj on Saturday March 11, 2023 @05:33PM (#35113489)
Because crypto is not currency. It’s more like the fake money at Habbo Hotel
Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by braingenious on Saturday March 11, 2023 @06:07PM (#35113733)
The path is gray.
Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by renewiltord on Saturday March 11, 2023 @06:30PM (#35113912)
Beats me, but JP Morgan Chase has paused withdrawals for me too. They say "You have reached your daily $5000 ATM withdrawal limit" and "Bank hours are 9 AM to 5 PM Monday through Friday".

"Trust us, you can withdraw your money! Or don't trust us! It doesn't matter because you have no choice but to look at your bank balance until we deem it advantageous to allow you to withdraw to real money!"

Re:An Update on USDC and Silicon Valley Bank by simple-thoughts on Sunday March 12, 2023 @12:58AM (#35117187)
This is exactly why I never hold USDC. Many stablecoins are well managed. USDC has a history of slimey behavior that has always made them appear much riskier to me than alternatives. For instance I don’t trust USDT management either, but I would trust them more than USDC management.