no one likes to be insulted. I don't think he would be ok being called a moron either. therefore we should ban "moron".

Exactly that most places actually do ban ‘moron’ in official communications and have done so for ages. It’s an extremely ableist term, it’s does not simply mean “stupid”.

I have to say, most places that go so far as to ban moron also ban stupid.

Who's banning? None of the lists the author talks about actually bans any language. They advise.

I think the point is that if someone does not comply with their advice they might have their life impacted in a negative way, can't get job, grants, ostracized, etc. Which de facto becomes a ban.

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I may have worded it better. Provocation is not the best tool.

My point is that there is already a "forbidden-word" list that everyone can easily agree with - which include things such as racial/discriminatory slurs. Then why is it such a stretch to understand that some words actually do hurt people? (I mean I know why - it involves conscious mental work, and human brain is optimised for shortcuts.)

One might be dissatisfied with some words in "the list", but what I see here is the rejection of the very idea that such lists have value. People who are affected by those words should ultimately be the deciders on the usage of those words, not people who have privilege.

While it may feel like it's "only something", it's still better than what was before - namely, nothing.

Why did you identify him as your black friend? Instead of your friend? The quote isn’t even about race.

The "status quo" is racial discrimination, which the person who said that is presumably subject to. The idea is that the word lists make people feel like they're helping, when those people aren't actually doing anything to fix actual problems and actually keep the system going.

I see lists like https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/stanfordlanguag... as ridiculous.

Tarball? “abusive relationship”? “war room”?

This is way beyond the obvious racial discrimination and micro agressions.

What are my kids going to deal with when they get into Uni?

If it meant breaking the status quo on more meaningful quality of life metrics, like being able to get better jobs or better mortgages, I'm not sure the answer is so obvious.

It doesn’t.

The NY Times put a moratorium on anti-Asian aggression by Black Americans during the early days of COVID.

Yet they made an exception for a White on Asian, but all that did was mask the actual problem in society.

Growing up as an immigrant, the racism in non-White American circles is also very real but never spoken of.

Consequences of punching down may be different than punching up. Even if the ideal is no one throwing punches.

Would you care to elaborate on what you mean here?

Whites are a majority. So aggression from them toward a minority like Asians would be "punching down".

Immigrants are typically a minority, so if they were discriminating or being aggressive towards the majority then it'd be considered "punching up".

So what about black american on immigrant discrimination?

Regular punching I suppose. Regardless all punching is bad. It's just that there is some nuance in how it's dealt with. Much like big kids punching much smaller kids (and vice versa) on the playground.

This reduces to making discrimination and prejudice acceptable for certain groups.

A better analogy would be the smaller kid finding yet another, even smaller kid to beat down.

Then avoiding any mention of the smaller bully, because they were being bullied by someone larger. Nothing positive or nuanced about this position.

I think its because its much more likely that the friend is a reluctant beneficiary of signaling, not part of the powers that be

his point is that such signaling is annoying on its face (it’s smarmy and patronizing) and also annoying because it doesn’t benefit him: especially compared to, say, competitive job offers, recruitment efforts at HBCs, etc. Actions that aren’t primarily focused on “showing”, but are concerned more with “doing”.

HBCUs

yes, agreed

The problem is that many of the same people who rail against guidelines that encourage more neutral language also dislike things like affirmative action, scholarships for minorities, investment or other governmental support for poorer people.

So I guess you just have to hope problems like inequality resolve themselves. Fingers crossed eh!

The problems like "inequality" did not happen because we had equality. They arose because we had discrimination. Many of the same people who rail against guidelines that encourage more neutral language also don't agree that "the only cure to the past discrimination is present discrimination".

It does not sound crazy to me.

Yes it doesn't sound crazy because you're not describing reality - you're describing the fictional world where you are being victimised because you're not a minority. This line of reasoning is a favourite with white supremacists and "actually it's racist to try to address racism" is the first step on that road.

>also dislike things like affirmative action, scholarships for minorities, investment/stimulus in poorer areas or other governmental support for poorer people.

In my experience, the "Don't help poor people" and "Don't be racist when supporting people" are not the same group.

A slightly different take is that it's easier to police people's language than to try to change the world.

Policing language changes the world and it does so in a double-plus-ungood way.

This is the same take.

Visibility = Number of people impacted * level of impact

Getting a high level of impact is hard. A company word list stacks the other side of the equation. That visibility gives people a feeling of impact and something to point out, to convince themselves they're doing good in the world, while at the same time they're funding the politician that is gerrymandering to reduce the voting impact of black people, for example.