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Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by s1artibartfast on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @03:35PM (#35060828)
This is a pet issue of mine, having lived in two off grid homes going back to the 80's.

The barriers are not materials, technology, or labor, but purely regulatory.

I could take my current home off permanently grid with solar today for less than 10k but to do so would be illegal.

Permitted grid connected solar costs 5x that and disconnecting from the grid is not permitted.

Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by boringg on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @03:43PM (#35060920)
To be fair - technology is lacking for people living in the city to be able to go off grid in a meaningful way.

Disconnecting from the grid - that sounds like there's some kind of clause in the area that you live that essentially ties you to the utility. You must live in on the pacific coast or SW.

EDIT: To all the responses - I'm talking off grid as in all functionality. Sure you can add solar / solar thermal etc though in many places it isn't cost effective and doesn't make a lot of sense in a city where the alternative is that those costs are defrayed across a large base that provides reliability and service. I don't have much love for utilities but they do provide a valuable service.

Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by orcajerk on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @03:49PM (#35061000)
Things may be different now but some cities used to the condemn the house if it did not have electricity from a provider. It is a scam, considering most people did not have electricity even 100 years ago.
Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by s1artibartfast on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @03:50PM (#35061025)
That's fair if you're talking about all utilities in the city. Sewer and water are the main problems in an urban environment. Rooftop solar on the other hand is dirt cheap and only slightly more complicated to install then plugging in a toaster.
Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by boringg on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @04:02PM (#35061171)
Actually rooftop solar isn't dirt cheap where we are. And typically requires an electric service upgrade - you also need to make sure you aren't near the end of your roof life as you'll need to upgrade your roof as well.

I'm all for it where it makes sense but it isn't a blanket statement.

Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by s1artibartfast on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @04:58PM (#35061860)
I mean dirt cheap and absence of cumbersome regulations and requirements. For example, you can find panels as low as $0.07/kwh these days.

My primary complaint is in agreement; solar is not cheap once you take them into account

Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by coffeebeqn on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @07:13PM (#35063367)
What period of time is that kWh over?
Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by s1artibartfast on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @07:45PM (#35063669)
kWh/h :P
Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by boringg on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @09:27PM (#35064432)
Solar is typically quoted as $ / Watt.

For reference what you quoted was 0.7 $/Watt not 7 cents.

While the cost of the panels has dropped - you still have balance of system and, yes, the unbelievably high interconnection costs (location dependent)

Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by s1artibartfast on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @09:38PM (#35064505)
I totally agree and fixed it in the post you responded to. At the end of the day a panels and electronics are a minor contribution to the project cost.

I think in most of California it is still legal to do home electrical work, provided it is permitted and inspected, but I'm not sure if this is true for solar as well.

Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by kevin_thibedeau on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @03:47PM (#35060979)
> for people living in the city to be able to go off grid in a meaningful way.

Everyone has a use for hot water. You can always have off-grid solar heating an auxiliary tank to take the load off the primary water heater.

Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by boringg on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @04:01PM (#35061157)
Having a hot water heater isn't the equivalent of going off-grid in a meaningful way.

You are talking about incremental improvements.

Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by jedberg on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @03:46PM (#35060973)
How would you get enough panels and all the support equipment for $10K if there were no regulations? I'm looking into it right now and I don't see a path to that.
Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by coffeebeqn on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @07:15PM (#35063394)
Buying used panels bulk, DIY most of the the install.. I’m not sure how much kWh you would end up with but could be a decent amount. Battery storage is probably the most expensive part if you want overnight power
Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by s1artibartfast on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @07:42PM (#35063638)
It all depends on what your need is in terms of power consumption and storage.

New bulk panels can be be purchased as low as $0.07/kw or $7,000 for 10 kw nameplate. You can get 10kwh of lead acid batteries for another 2 grand, a 10kw combo MPPT for ~1 grand or a 10KW charge controller + 5 KW AC inverter for the same.

I'm out of budget so I guess I'm racking with 2x4s and using chicken wire for cabling, but you get the point

Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by mindslight on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @03:47PM (#35060981)
> Permitted grid connected solar costs 5x that and disconnecting from the grid is not permitted.

Why not treat them as independent problems - an off-grid solar system for most of your electricity, while also maintaining a nominal (/backup) grid connection? If your home is already connected to the grid, then I would think the ongoing cost would be minimal and could be viewed as just another tax.

Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by s1artibartfast on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @11:48PM (#35065386)
That's a fair question but it doesn't really save you any money, and just costs more for a breaker to switch back and forth. Everything still needs to be inspected and permitted to the same level of rigor because it is still technically wired to the grid and you just have more elements which could malfunction in a less standard configuration
Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by mindslight on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:11PM (#35071697)
If a hardwired interconnect to the grid is what triggers your permit/license requirements, then forget that I threw out the "backup" functionality. Ignore the grid connection and just treat the monthly service charge as another tax.

Or if you can get away with having a power inlet on your off grid system and powering that system from the grid with an extension cord during temporary backup/maintenance conditions only, go for that.

For my own AHJ, grid interconnect has nothing to do with whether permits/licenses are required (and for homeowner work, they're not). So an off-grid system and grid-connected are under the same requirements there regardless. A grid-tie system that can feed back power to the grid requires additional signoff/agreement with the POCO though.

(I'm very sympathetic to the situations where the utility will demand some stiff fee to build out a grid connection to a new residence, while local regulations require this connection for occupancy. But this isn't what you described)

Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by potmat on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @03:48PM (#35060999)
> disconnecting from the grid is not permitted

Wait, what? What happens if you just don't pay your bill?

Edit: Or just disconnect internally, meaning you use no power.

Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by tick_tock_tick on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @03:53PM (#35061051)
They are most likely referring to many/most counties require a grid connection for the home to be considered "habitable". Refusing and living in a un-habitable home can have all sorts of fun consequences up to and including the seizure of your own children by the state.
Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by mattnewton on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @03:54PM (#35061062)
Not OP but in many municipalities the dwelling would be no longer up to code, and therefore illegal to inhabit
Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by wombat_trouble on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @04:26PM (#35061491)
Every other home in the US isn't up to code. The code changes over time and governs all kinds of mundane things that you as a homeowner don't pay attention to (and shouldn't be forced to). Not being compliant doesn't make a home illegal to live in.

This is different. Many municipalities specifically require all dwellings to have basic utilities (water, sewer, electricity, garbage service), even if you're not using them. Not having that will get you in trouble pretty quickly.

Unincorporated areas are usually fair game.

Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by dymk on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @04:28PM (#35061510)
Illegal to sell perhaps, but where does that mean illegal to inhabit as well?
Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by kibwen on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @04:01PM (#35061158)
> disconnecting from the grid is not permitted

In the context of the OP, which is a federal agency, whether or not you can build a house that is disconnected from the electrical grid is determined first by your local laws, and secondly by your state laws. You can certainly build houses in the US that aren't on the electrical grid, demonstrating that there's no federal prohibition against it.

Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by aclatuts on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @04:17PM (#35061362)
Disconnecting from the grid is overly romanticized. What you get from paying the utilities is a team of people who will fix equipment issues due to failure or the environment. If your home battery system has issues, scheduling someone could take a day or more. Off grid electrical services isn't popular enough to be on call 24/7. And getting parts may get take even more time. Equipment failure could take your electricity out for days or weeks. Being fully off grind means over provisioning your electrical storage and production, adding to costs. You also would not be able to sell your excess electricity. Also, in terms of house value, I imagine more people value the peace of mind of a connected electrical grid over saving the small fixed monthly connection fee.
Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by s1artibartfast on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @04:44PM (#35061692)
I totally agree that it is not for everybody, but I think there is a place for it and think there should be fewer barriers .

I've seen a few people quoted more than 500K for PG&E to run power to their house. That can buy a lot of redundancy and peace of mind. Similarly, many cities have power outages longer than 24 hours on an annual basis in California. At this point most people in my neighborhood have gas generators for when the grid goes out.

Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by coffeebeqn on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @07:10PM (#35063338)
Heck for 500k you can start your own Solar power plant and serve the neighborhood
Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by s1artibartfast on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @07:44PM (#35063657)
Nope, you need a permit for that and it would cost a lot more!
Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by grecy on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @10:55PM (#35065030)
> What you get from paying the utilities is a team of people who will fix equipment issues due to failure or the environment

Friends have lived off-grid in the Yukon in a very nice house for 20 years.

It's hard to get house insurance when you're not on the grid, and whenever they get asked about it, they ask the insurance person on the phone "When was the last time you had a power outage?" (inevitably the answer is sometime in the last month or three - the power grid in the Yukon is a fickle thing).

In 20 years, they've never had a single second of power outage in their very nice off grid house.

Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by jimt1234 on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @05:06PM (#35061950)
I'm just curious: what happens if a home owner installs a bunch of solar panels and batteries, declares the property "off grid" (for electricity), then simply stops paying the local utility. I'm sure the local utility will stop service, which is what the home owner wants by going "off grid". But does it go beyond that? Will the local utility put a lien on the house? Will the local utility send any unpaid "fees" to collection? Does the local municipality condemn the property (or something similar)? Are there potential criminal charges?
Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by coffeebeqn on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @07:08PM (#35063314)
Paying for what? You pay for the kWh you use and the transfer of said energy. If you don’t use any energy or disconnect your service I don’t see why would that be a problem
Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by jedberg on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:50AM (#35065709)
Electricity grids have two parts -- the infrastructure that moves the electricity and the actual power.

Before home generation, everyone needed both. The cost of the infrastructure was amortized over all of the customers. As it turned out, rich people used more power, so by having a single charge just based on usage but that covered the cost of both usage and the grid, rich people subsidized poor people.

But the home solar came along, and the rich people started getting it. So now the power companies have a problem. They still have to maintain all of that grid infrastructure, whether you're connected to it or not, and they need rich people to subsidize it.

The could have simply split the bill up and put the infrastructure on the property tax bill and then just charge people for their actual usage, but that would be complicated and would reveal how much they pay for each part.

So instead they lobbied for laws that don't let you go off grid and force you to pay a minimum "connection fee" each month.

Re:Zero energy ready homes are coming by bluGill on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @09:12PM (#35064329)
The duty can remove your right to live in the house. Utilities serve the whole city, if you don't connect you are violating the unwritten agreement to help the city exist. Even if you don't use power you need to pay your share of the power lines.