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Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by idopmstuff on Saturday March 04, 2023 @07:24PM (#35025889)
I can't help but think Andreesen's gone off the deep end a bit, especially after he started gushing over Adam Neumann's second run at a real estate company (“We think it is natural that for his first venture since WeWork, Adam returns to the theme of connecting people through transforming their physical spaces and building communities where people spend the most time: their homes.”).

> AI is simply already illegal across most of the economy, soon to be virtually all of the economy.

This just isn't true - AI won't necessarily be a product in the sectors he's talking about, but it'll absolutely improve them. Hospital services? AI is clearly going to be involved, at least in things like radiology. College tuition? I suppose that depends on how much the value of higher education remains in scarce brand names vs. education, but clearly AI is going to open up educational opportunities in a way that brings the costs way down.

And then AI will eventually (and to be clear, it might be a while) get us to general-purpose robots. He says "Those industries are monopolies, oligopolies, and cartels, with extensive formal government regulation as well as regulatory capture, price fixing, Soviet style price setting, occupational licensing, and every other barrier to improvement and change you can possibly imagine." but in an industry like construction, if you accept what he's saying, all of that control is in the hands of the rich folks at the top. What he's suggesting is that they'll protect the jobs of construction workers when they can replace them with cheaper, more efficient robots who are exempt from safety standards.

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by BWStearns on Saturday March 04, 2023 @07:31PM (#35025932)
Something snapped in him when crypto shit the bed. His new obsession with AI is him working some stuff out.
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by James_Henry on Saturday March 04, 2023 @07:34PM (#35025957)
It's because he stopped drinking recently. https://pmarca.substack.com/p/on-pausing-alcohol

(In all seriousness, I'm very happy it's becoming more fashionable to not drink)

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by EFreethought on Saturday March 04, 2023 @10:29PM (#35026677)
It is not fashionable to not drink.

What is fashionable: to drink a lot for many years, then stop drinking and blather on about how much better life is.

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by TechnicolorByte on Saturday March 04, 2023 @11:35PM (#35026930)
This rings so true. It seems socially acceptable to either be a regular social drinker or a renounced drinker.
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by harvey9 on Sunday March 05, 2023 @09:26AM (#35029835)
I'm bored by the blatherers too, but there is survey data to indicate younger people drinking less than earlier generations.

Might just be drink being less affordable, or other drugs being more affordable rather than a fashion decision

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by jstarfish on Sunday March 05, 2023 @12:39PM (#35031886)
> Might just be drink being less affordable, or other drugs being more affordable rather than a fashion decision

Or they're just joyless teetotalers who've replaced their friends with SSRIs and amphetamines.

Inebriation is vulnerability. It's too risky to drink around other people these days, which is the entire point of it. I don't even see/smell anybody smoking weed despite it being legal and accessible...my local dispensary is a ghost town.

Loosened social inhibitions is a footgun, and drinking alone is miserable, so why bother?

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by rl3 on Saturday March 04, 2023 @07:37PM (#35025973)
I'd argue the first snap occurred years prior, proximate to A16Z's heavy investment in crypto.

Web3 was part two.

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by paulpauper on Saturday March 04, 2023 @07:36PM (#35025966)
Crypto was a big mistake on his part, imho . Crypto is not at all like the 'next facebook' or the 'next world wide web'. At best it will be a niche and limited to gambling. Even I could have told him it was a bad idea, but it's not his money, so what does he have to lose. As long as there are people chasing the latest thing in the hope of getting rich, there will be people selling shovels and ticket.
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by jrumbut on Sunday March 05, 2023 @12:06AM (#35027051)
Limited to gambling is hardly limited at all if your mission is life is to extract money out of people by any means possible.

If your mission is whatever noble sounding thing most investors claim then yes, it is very limited.

On the topic of the article. Employment and unemployment are social constructs and how AI changes them is up to us.

It won't inevitably lead to a post-scarcity society or to mass poverty.

What happens will depend on what you, the reader, do. Do you assume it will all work out? Do you get active in remaking the social contract? Do you try to exploit the situation for your own ends?

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by outside1234 on Saturday March 04, 2023 @07:32PM (#35025942)
These guys will pitch whatever sells to the gullible.
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by James_Henry on Saturday March 04, 2023 @07:34PM (#35025955)
Just whatever sells. Sometimes they pitch something we all want.
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by wolongong942 on Sunday March 05, 2023 @02:52AM (#35027743)
Probably realizes the Crypto ting is tainted, he needs a new steaming pile of shit to scam people with. AI is perfect like crypto, because you can use techyspeak to confuse people.
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by phillipcarter on Saturday March 04, 2023 @07:28PM (#35025907)
Yeah, his whole post is thinly veiled anti-regulations blather. I suppose it’s a nice break from his web3 nonsense and his deranged anti-“woke” posting.
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by James_Henry on Saturday March 04, 2023 @07:39PM (#35025989)
I missed the veil.
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by whitemary on Saturday March 04, 2023 @11:31PM (#35026913)
The best part of capitalism is “the cream floats to the top.”
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by john_the_writer on Sunday March 05, 2023 @12:55AM (#35027211)
Got to admit, the break from web3 was nice.
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by twelve40 on Saturday March 04, 2023 @07:57PM (#35026080)
I have no special love for this guy as he said some stuff that pissed me off in the past, but what is your specific argument against this post right here?

> Hospital services? AI is clearly going to be involved, at least in things like radiology

This is very far from the main point: accuracy of the claim that AI will wipe out (in this case health-related) jobs (and/or make health-related services cheaper). "involved" here is so vague as to be meaningless.

> clearly AI is going to open up educational opportunities in a way that brings the costs way down

It may be crystal clear to you that AI will bring the cost of popular education down, but it is not clear to me at all, and adding "clearly" and "obviously" to some future claim does not make it any more convincing. He's trying to work with existing trends and data, you are saying "clearly the trend will reverse just because".

I realize the original post was written by somebody who has a reputation for saying one thing and doing something completely different, etc. etc.

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by idopmstuff on Saturday March 04, 2023 @08:20PM (#35026187)
> This is very far from the main point: accuracy of the claim that AI will wipe out (in this case health-related) jobs (and/or make health-related services cheaper). "involved" here is so vague as to be meaningless.

Let me rephrase: AI is better at human beings at the sort of pattern-matching work that radiology entails, so the majority of radiologists will be unemployed (I'll say in 20 years, if you want to check back down the line a bit and see how I did). This will both improve patient outcomes (fewer mistakes) and lower costs. Some radiologists will remain in supervisory/research/needing to have a human to rubber stamp type roles.

> It may be crystal clear to you that AI will bring the cost of popular education down, but it is not clear to me at all, and adding "clearly" and "obviously" to some future claim does not make it any more convincing. He's trying to work with existing trends and data, you are saying "clearly the trend will reverse just because".

I'm not saying anything "just because." I'm saying that technological changes in the form of AI will cause the trend to change, as technological changes have caused numerous economic upheavals. Nonetheless, I will be more specific - AI will give everyone a completely knowledgeable, fully personalized tutor. It will be able to very specifically identify places where a student is having difficulty and create custom exercises that are tailored to not only the subject, but also the student's optimal methods of learning. It will be able to custom tailor curriculum to fit a student's specific knowledge and career goals. The relative inefficiency of the large-scale lecture model of higher education will be so significant that the value it'll retain will just lie in the brand cache of the institute of higher learning (effectively, you passed the Stanford admissions AI's muster, so you're smart).

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by yourapostasy on Saturday March 04, 2023 @11:10PM (#35026847)
> ...AI will give everyone a completely knowledgeable, fully personalized tutor.

I want to see a GPT-based implementation of A Young Lady’s Illustrated Primer-like open world that constantly teaches. We have a lot of the precursors needed to attempt it and give it a shot.

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by weard_beard on Saturday March 04, 2023 @11:32PM (#35026915)
This is my life long dream. To get to work on gen1 of something like this.

In place of paid mechanical Turk tutors I want to create an epistemological engine consisting of 3 main things: an inventory system of composable pieces of collected knowledge about the game world, a set of story writing design tools to create vignettes and connect pieces of narrative… a kind of narrative procedural generation system, and finally a set of original ui elements to showcase how the “knowbits” can be used to interact with the games narrative. AI will be used for character actors.

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by john_the_writer on Sunday March 05, 2023 @01:04AM (#35027250)
I find any time someone uses the word obviously they're either trying to force an opinion, or insulting you.

If it is obvious to all, then the word is meant to point out how stupid the listener is.

If it's not obvious to all then the speaker is just trying to shut down a conversation.

Clearly I'm right about this. It's obvious.

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by quijoteuniv on Sunday March 05, 2023 @01:14AM (#35027297)
That is common sense and standard practice
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by twelve40 on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:00AM (#35027780)
Got it. According to BLS, there are 29,530 radiologists out of 20,736,000 total employed in healthcare in the US. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291224.htm

But, i get the gist of it, we can probably find many more niches that might suffer.

My take on the bigger point is, I wouldn't be so sure about the economy-wide apocalypse. I agree with what he said about the outsourcing scare of 2000's, and if pure cost+customization of education, for example, were an issue, you could conceivably hire a very good personal tutor (professor even) from a low-COL English speaking country, even like 15 years ago, or build yourself your own full custom curriculum for free from MIT videos and plentiful other information that has been around forever, mostly for free. Yet, colleges haven't been abandoned, people are taking on more and more debt every year just to be a part of that system. This is probably not technological in nature. Same for healthcare, there are so much money (and technology) getting poured into that but the system keeps getting more expensive and not too much more efficient, will probably start regressing at some point.

My personal point of curiosity was that autonomous driving, which 10 years ago was promised to have fully arrived 5 years ago, which among other things would have turned 2,000,000 not-very-retrainable-in-such-numbers truck drivers in the US into basically near-homeless people. Well, it hasn't really happened:

> from 2020 you will become a permanent backseat driver

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/sep/13/self-driv...

We've been, too, promised that AI will revolutionize healthcare, e.g. that Watson will replace your doctor (at least, according to the IBM and friends' pitches). Watson turned out to be less than a rounding error in the healthcare equation (i think they got rid of parts of it by now).

The point being, to me it's not very clear cut, and some of what MA pointed out seems really to be caused not by inferior pre-ChatGPT technology but for more societal/economical reasons and incentives (perverse or not).

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by sklivvz1971 on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:10AM (#35027828)
The statement that "AI is better than human beings at the pattern-matching work of radiology, so the majority of radiologists will be unemployed" oversimplifies the role of radiologists. While AI can assist with pattern matching and improve scan quality, radiologists are doctors who diagnose pathologies based on multiple factors, not just scans. They also interact with patients, make important judgments, and determine when further investigation is necessary, for example.

While it is possible in theory for AI to handle these tasks, they are complex and difficult problems to solve. There is currently no evidence to suggest that AI will replace radiologists in the two decades. Therefore, it is important to recognize the valuable role that radiologists play in patient care and not underestimate the challenges that remain in developing AI technology that can effectively replicate their expertise.

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by ruszki on Sunday March 05, 2023 @04:08AM (#35028051)
> doctors who diagnose pathologies based on multiple factors This is part of “patterns”. Multiple factors are just patterns. > They also interact with patients, make important judgments, and determine when further investigation is necessary, for example. Judgements and determining further investigation can be just output of AIs. Interacting with patient can be important, but as we can and could see, that is not preferred by many people. For example, I used an AI in the past few years for every of my medical problems. It was better than my doctors averagely. I still followed my doctors advices, but they failed many-many times when it wasn’t a simple cold or injury. It’s a matter of time when something will click in my mind and I start to ignore doctors as the first contact points. Especially that there is a good chance that you get an asshole, or an idiot, who just causes more problems (both happened to me way more frequently than it should be acceptable).
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by idopmstuff on Sunday March 05, 2023 @09:48AM (#35030023)
I am 90% sure this is written by an LLM. The last sentence, particular the fact that it starts with "Therefore" really seals it for me.
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by fallingknife on Sunday March 05, 2023 @10:08AM (#35030204)
I am 90% sure that some form of "this was clearly written by ChatGPT" will be the new go to comment for people who don't have a counterargument to people who disagree.
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by LeonB on Sunday March 05, 2023 @12:32AM (#35027150)
When the television first arrived any TV optimist would’ve said:

“clearly TV is going to open up educational opportunities in a way that brings the costs way down”

… and that is exactly what happened. Since 1960 every kid in the world “clearly” gets the absolute best education imaginable thanks to the economy of scale afforded by TV broadcasting. It’s basic economics. Oh wait.

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by pythonaut_16 on Sunday March 05, 2023 @01:13AM (#35027291)
And yet the proliferation of screens capable of displaying information and graphics has been an absolute boon to education.
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by LeonB on Sunday March 05, 2023 @02:26AM (#35027616)
I’m not denying it, but the cost of educating 1 child - has that fallen or risen?
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by staunton on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:37AM (#35027932)
The cost of educating 1 child was never lower than when they were taught by their parents how to work the fields while doing said work. Education costs tell us very little about both quality and efficiency of education.
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by naveen99 on Sunday March 05, 2023 @07:11AM (#35028908)
Most of that is just babysitting / baby jailing cost.
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by theGnuMe on Sunday March 05, 2023 @09:30AM (#35029861)
Well the thing with education is that there is always more to learn since knowledge keeps increasing. So arguably what you want to measure is productivity. Has television, say PBS increased educational productivity. I would say yes. I remember watching Nova shows in science class and so forth. So yes TV has reduced costs.

Books also increased productivity in the same way.

Would remote learning reduce costs? Yes.

Will AI systems reduce cost, yes.

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by LeonB on Sunday March 05, 2023 @04:32PM (#35034185)
> I remember watching Nova shows in science class and so forth. So yes TV has reduced costs.

What cost did the school save themselves here? The paid for televisions, so TV increased costs.

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by theGnuMe on Sunday March 05, 2023 @10:05PM (#35037066)
And they saved money in lesson plans and materials.
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by fallingknife on Sunday March 05, 2023 @10:14AM (#35030259)
Do you mean education as in actually education? Then the cost has fallen to basically nothing. Or do you mean education as in credentialing, which is the way most people use the word? In that case it hasn't because, as the value of a credential rests entirely on other people not having it, it is in the interest of schools to restrict the supply.
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by Amezarak on Sunday March 05, 2023 @07:43AM (#35029125)
It is not clear to me that is the case. Has the proliferation of screens actually improved learning outcomes?

It appears to me that e.g., HS graduate standards have been gradually lowered over time, particularly the further back you go. Maybe this is independent of the screens.

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by pythonaut_16 on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @08:21PM (#35077200)
Unequivocally yes. Not every usage of a screen in education is beneficial.

But there are absolutely numerous use cases where being able to display graphics on a screen (or even better interactively) is a massive benefit. Think of any sort of science that's better shown with animation than just a static image on a page for example.

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by Amezarak on Friday March 10, 2023 @05:38AM (#35092763)
Sure, no doubt, a video can sometimes make things much clearer. A great example (to me) is this [1] for example. I had understood from the old illustrations that I was supposed to imagine something like that, but video makes it incredibly clear.

The actual net impact of screens in classrooms, however, appears to me to be extremely negative, and I think learning outcomes bear that out.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrwgIjBUYVc

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by jillesvangurp on Sunday March 05, 2023 @12:09AM (#35027069)
You are not wrong. This is what I would call a severe imagination deficit. Which is of course not a great trait for a venture capitalist. Andreesen is framing things in a very US centric context. Which of course represents the status quo there and the way things are; mostly for historic reasons. That's going to change for two simple reasons. Number 1 would be that it is sub optimal to say the least. It's simply not sustainable. And number 2 is that this is not the way things are elsewhere and the US is in competition with those places. Andreesen is making a closed world assumption and navel gazing. Failing to adapt basically means a slide towards being less relevant, less competitive, etc. Which is of course another way of saying that change is inevitably coming. Whether people like it or not and whether they are ready for it or not. Eventually the economy would collapse and people would adapt. But probably some time before that people will get a clue and start fixing things. Either way, things change. So predicting that things won't, shouldn't or can't change is a foolish prediction to make.

If you want a concrete example of a few places that aren't going to be held back by regulation and bureaucracy: China, India, most of Africa. They have bureaucracies of course but they are also booming economies and very much making the difference via technology. People are going to push boundaries with what is possible technically and some places are going to be more comfortable doing that than others. Ultimately, the willingness to push boundaries is what will lead to breakthrough results. If the US is not willing, too complacent, or too scared, that just means it happens elsewhere.

All this is true regardless of AI. But of course given that we have that, people are going to use that in anger for all sorts of things. Some misguided, some foolish, and some very productive and practical. Andreesen is arguing that flat panels are cheap and education is expensive. Flat panels are cheap because they are not made in the US and the production of those is not bogged down by how inefficient things have become in the US. For the same reason, you are better off getting your education outside of the US. Education is more or less free in other parts of the world. It's only this expensive in the US. Probably silicon valley is the worst place in the world to get one in terms of economics. Which is why a lot of the people working there are coming from abroad. Which is where they get most of their education.

Probably education is at the forefront of what AI can do short term btw. I've played a bit with chat gpt and it's an obviously awesome educational tool. It's like this patient tutor that is willing to explore any subject and answer any question. It might be a bit off with the facts and all the bat shit crazy hallucination. But that sounds like it should be a fixable problem. Once that is fixed, there will be no shortage of teachers any more. Anyone willing to learn will be able to learn and receive an education that is completely tailored to them. Anything, anyone, anywhere. Kids are using chat gpt already to fool their teachers. The next logical step is replacing them entirely. That's not going to take a lot of time. And it won't cost anywhere near a million dollars.

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by petesergeant on Sunday March 05, 2023 @01:40AM (#35027427)
> a few places that aren't going to be held back by regulation and bureaucracy: China, India, most of Africa

Lack of bureaucracy and government control are not defining features of these places.

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by unmole on Sunday March 05, 2023 @12:40AM (#35027172)
> I can't help but think Andreesen's gone off the deep end a bit

The first time I heard of him was in 2016: https://www.fastcompany.com/3056581/marc-andreessen-riles-up...

As far as I'm concerned, he's always been kooky.

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by kragen on Sunday March 05, 2023 @12:50AM (#35027192)
he led the mosaic project at ncsa, creating the first web browser most people today would recognize as a browser, with things like images mixed in with text

then he went off and founded netscape, creating the dot-com boom

since then he's mostly been running a successful vc firm

so yeah he's always been 'kooky'

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by unmole on Sunday March 05, 2023 @03:27AM (#35027896)
Is there some definition of kooky that precludes someone from being brilliant?
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by kragen on Sunday March 05, 2023 @10:03AM (#35030166)
i don't think you can be brilliant without being kooky; if all you know is consensus reality you can never reach any conclusions before consensus reality does
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by theGnuMe on Sunday March 05, 2023 @09:53AM (#35030071)
Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by afunctionof on Monday March 06, 2023 @10:47AM (#35042396)
Copying comment from earlier thread because I sent it two days after thread:

You should add your Matrix to your contact page.

Edit: Also, is there going to be another der* release this year? They and therefore you have taught me more than I'd learned in the last five years otherwise.

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by kragen on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:25PM (#35050750)
wow, that's astonishing and wonderful to hear, thank you

i hope the things you learned from them were mostly true

i was planning to do one in december but i felt like i didn't have much material because i had a pretty unproductive year in 02022, and i'm increasingly dissatisfied with the medium

you're right about matrix

Re:Why AI Won't Cause Unemployment by AnthonyMouse on Sunday March 05, 2023 @01:31AM (#35027387)
> but in an industry like construction, if you accept what he's saying, all of that control is in the hands of the rich folks at the top. What he's suggesting is that they'll protect the jobs of construction workers when they can replace them with cheaper, more efficient robots who are exempt from safety standards.

That doesn't follow, particularly in construction.

There are many regulations that require something which is nominally better but is a trade off against cost, making the lower cost alternative unavailable. Much of that increase goes to the construction contractors as labor costs or markups on more expensive materials, so it's their unions and trade organizations lobbying in favor of the cost increase. The regulatory capture is by the construction workers.

They're also aligned with anyone who wants housing costs to stay high, including realtors and real estate investors. So yes, the rich folks at the top will protect the jobs of the construction workers when the high construction costs help them keep rents high.