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Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by thadt on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:07PM (#34890632)
Yep - had this discussion today. The problem is that building high quality modern 'AI' tools requires a metric assload of data. Right now everyone is running around scraping the Internet indiscriminately for that data and building the best things that they can. The next step is that the creators of said training data want their cut, and the lawyers step in and shake out the industry for the next few years. Precedent is set, laws are made and content creators get to license their data for training these AI models.

Once those laws are in place, the moat is dug - and large corporations with access to capital vacuum up good training data in bulk. The whole time loudly proclaiming that they're 'empowering creators' and 'rewarding original thinkers.' Now the large corporations have the largest and best datasets tied up and neat, deep moat. Any startup wanting to challenge the incumbents could have significantly better models, but without access to the same quality and volume of training data, they'll be at a massive disadvantage.

Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by Kranar on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:29PM (#34890811)
Yeah I posted this in another thread but your claim is simply untrue.

There is little to no need for anyone to scrape the web themselves, CommonCrawl does it for free and provides access to all that data for free, they are a charity similar to The Internet Archive:

https://commoncrawl.org/

As for using that data to train a model, I've done it at my own company and it's not that expensive, certainly not the astronomically expensive figures people seem to think it is. Maybe a hobbyist can't do it for themselves, but my small company managed to get pretty good results training on our existing hardware. It's hard to give concrete figures because we manage our own hardware instead of using AWS, but all in we're talking on the order of 100k, as opposed to what I've heard people on HN think it costs, as if it's a $10 million+ enterprise.

Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by leloctai on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:39PM (#34890896)
Big corp will always have more data. Even just the web, search engine have a big head start. Then there are "private" data that big provider use for "improving our product": emails, word documents, chat messages, non public social media posts,...
Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by anon291 on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:36PM (#34890868)
Yeah and the model will be useless when the courts determine it's illegal to use it commercially without having properly licensed the data.

Remember... Bits have color and AI models are a rainbow.

Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by alchemist1e9 on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @10:04PM (#34891109)
That’s extremely unlikely and impractical anyway. I’ve heard multiple times this mythical “courts” are going to change everything, what makes people think this?
Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by joenot443 on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @10:31PM (#34891288)
“The courts” don’t have rules which apply globally for this sort of thing. My understanding is that even if the models were made illegal to host in America, there’s no shortage of other countries much looser copyright laws where one could hypothetically host such a thing.

There are clearnet sites which host entire movies and games and there have been since the dawn of the internet, wouldn’t you expect those would be bigger targets to go after if the powers were there? All that to say, I’m not bullish on the future global leverage of American copyright law, especially when it comes to AI models.

Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by piva00 on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @03:53AM (#34893247)
But courts have jurisdiction over their consumer markets, if a court in the US says it's illegal to use non-licenced data for training models and any product doing so can't be used/sold in the US you have lost access to a massive consumer market.

Case in point: GDPR, you can vacuum as much private data as you wish from non-EU citizens, the moment you touch EU-citizen data you must abide by the GDPR or you don't have access to a market of 400+ million of some of the wealthiest countries in the world.

You don't need global jurisdiction when your economical power is large enough.

Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by soco on Thursday February 23, 2023 @03:13AM (#34908120)
Which leaves the citizens in countries without large enough economical power at the mercy of those corporations. Nothing new, you will say.
Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by Animats on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:51PM (#34891009)
That's a useful number. Just yesterday we had an announcement of an open source system you can train with one GPU on a desktop for simple models. That could usefully use 16 or 24 GPUs, but it's not like you need a whole data center. It doesn't look like this is an industry with excessive monopoly potential.

The real issue for machine learning is that it lets you build systems that optimize for some metric. That's what corporations do. I've been pointing out lately that the ethical problems for AI in the near term look very much like those for corporations.

Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by alchemist1e9 on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @10:08PM (#34891144)
I’ve been thinking along the same lines as what you seem to have done. I looked into the CommonCrawl data and also the Pile and I’m not sure they are as large as people think. We also manage some of our own hardware including GPUs. It looked to me that with maybe .5 PB decent storage and 8 high end gpus it could be possible to train a decent LLM in a few months, how does that estimate compare to your experience?
Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by anigbrowl on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:36PM (#34890869)
high quality modern 'AI' tools requires a metric assload of data

There seems to be a lot of different ideas about 'quality'. A lot of people want a better-than-search tool that knows vast amounts and can be assigned tasks. I'm personally much more interested in a reasoning machine, I don't need it to include the entire contents of the New York Public Library.

Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by htag on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:31PM (#34890828)
I wonder how correct this is. There are two growth factors here. One is the amount of data required to train a premium model is increasing. The second is that the amount of data being generated is increasing.

I think the future you described is possible. I also think it's possible that corporations are overpaying for data that will become stale after several years and new fresh data is generated in such great quantity/quality that access to it is not capital intensive.

Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by mountainriver on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:26PM (#34890773)
Eh not really, we aren’t far off from AI being able to use browsers just like humans and operate in the world like us. There are no reasonable laws that will be able to prevent this
Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by chii on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:40PM (#34890903)
> There are no reasonable laws that will be able to prevent this

any law can be legislated, if it can be put down as text.

It may be considered unreasonable, but if the majority of people _do_ agree, then it could be done.

Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by anon291 on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:37PM (#34890881)
Yeah there are... There is no fair use for AI. Fair use is about human rights to their own thoughts. AI does not have that.

The law is simple... You have to have a license to the data to train a model with that data. If you don't... Get ready to be sued.

Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by biscottigelato on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:51PM (#34891006)
Becareful of regulatory capture tho. If the one with AI headstart can capture a huge swath of value, said value can be used to lobby and bribe legislators or the executives of the government.

There's no good way to put the AI genie back in the bottle, or make sure it will not create catastrophic undesired consequences. Only way is forward, even if there is no good path in sight.

Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by flangola7 on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @10:03PM (#34891104)
> The law is simple... You have to have a license to the data to train a model with that data. If you don't... Get ready to be sued.

This won't be the case everywhere. UK has actually already explicitly ruled the opposite

Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by andsoitis on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:46PM (#34890962)
> operate in the world like us

To operate in the real world like humans you need to have motivation. What is an AI motivated by?

Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by Animats on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:52PM (#34891015)
Its goal function.
Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by andsoitis on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @11:12PM (#34891541)
Sure, but what would it be?
Re:AI Is Useful for Capitalists but Probably Terrible for An... by dchuk on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @10:14PM (#34891183)
Something I’ve been pondering lately: with the release of all of these content generating language models lately, what will happen to the “scrape and train” process going forward? Aren’t we about to realize an infinite loop problem basically where the training sets will be full of ai generated content that isn’t actually useful for training?

Seems like we almost need pre-ai scraped datasets, almost like how it’s sometimes very useful to have metals that were created before the first atom bombs (I don’t know too much about this, just that there’s a definite land in the radiated sand around that timeframe).