How many Ukranian lives do you think it’s worth spending to retake the occupied territories of Donbas and Crimea?

How many Russian lives do you think it’s worth spending to keep these territories occupied? (Wars are almost like natural catastrophes, they do not give people much choice.)

> How many Ukranian lives do you think it’s worth spending to retake the occupied territories of Donbas and Crimea?

I think that’s up to the Ukrainians.

Not the ones who are being conscripted and sent to the frontline to be slaughtered. I wouldn’t really say it was “up to them.”

Especially not the Russian ones.

How many lives should be spent to prevent Russia taking the next bite out of some other country? Do we just need to give them more 'breathing room'? That didn't go well last time.

> How many lives should be spent to prevent Russia taking the next bite out of some other country?

At least the one, taken out surgically with the Rods from God Ginsu kinetic weapon.

This question is irrelevant because we all know that if Ukraine secedes Donbas/Crimea today, next decade Russia will attack again for other lands. There is no end to this. You cannot appease dictators by letting them do exactly what they want. They will come back for more. This rhetoric of "let's secede some land to Russia to stop the war" feeds into Russia's hand.

Even if Russia withdrew its forces, they would still have the potential to attack again. So the the choice is really between pursuing a compromise now, or losing perhaps a million troops trying to weaken Russia’s future negotiating position by retaking separatist territories (and probably failing to do so).

The last time they tried to "compromise" was called the Minsk accords, and Putin quickly taught the Ukrainians an important lesson about trusting anything he says. Compromise is simply not an option. Unfortunately, the only options are victory or defeat. The vast majority of Ukrainians are very clear eyed about this.

Merkel has stated that the West had no intention of honoring the Minsk agreement. The purpose was to buy time for Ukraine to build up its army. The West negotiated in bad faith.

Who is invading who again?

If the west knew that Russia wouldn't honor any agreement and prepared for their inevitable attack I don't how is that 'in bad faith', they were right after all

I would say that technically the US invaded Ukraine by installing a subservient government after the ousting of Yanukovich. This is why Hunter Biden's laptop was buried as much as possible, it would reveal the connections and the financial interests. If Putin truly wanted to conquer Ukraine, he would have taken out the electricity and water supply, things of that nature.

This is not Ukraine vs Russia, this is the US/NATO vs Russia

> If Putin truly wanted to conquer Ukraine, he would have taken out the electricity and water supply, things of that nature.

This is exactly what Putin is doing.

> This is not Ukraine vs Russia, this is the US/NATO vs Russia

If this was _actually_ US/NATO vs Russia the war would be over in a matter of months.

That isn't a compromise, it's just delaying the inevitable. The Ukrainians can decide for themselves how much they're willing to sacrifice. As long as they're willing to fight we should give them whatever weapons they need. The more Russian soldiers they kill, the better it is for all NATO members. Bleed the Russian Empire to death.

You say they can decide for themselves, but in reality the troops are conscripted and forced to fight at the behest of the leadership or its suzerain. Massive agency problem.

Not at all. Ukraine is a democracy. If the troops didn't want to be conscripted then they should have voted for leaders who favored appeasement and surrender.

This is called appeasement. It did not worked in 1930s, it is not going to work today.

The goal of WW2 appeasement was not avoiding war but gaining enough time to prepare for the inevitable. It worked well enough for Britain.

Did not really worked out for France. And they had opportunities to end the war before it even started

* When Rheinland was reoccupied and they did nothing

* When Austria was annexed and they did nothing

* When Poland was attacked and all German armies were in the east and they did, basically nothing.

That is what you believe. It is an irrational belief with no logical basis.

I believe that Putin has no desire to conquer Ukraine. The days of empire building are a relic from the past. Everybody in Donbas/Crimea speaks Russian anyway.

How many Ukranians will be tortured to death like in Izium on the occupied territories if they are never liberated?

Lets just imagine the world you prefer where every leader like Putin decides it's okay to grab a pieces of neighboring countries.

I mean Poland wasn't a separate country for a long time and should be part of the new Russian Empire. Right? Ditto Finland. Maybe China needs to take some of Northern Vietnam. Return Korea to it's proper status as a Vassal State. And Taiwan of course. And Crete, Syria, and Greece need to be returned to the Turks. And Israel can retake Jordon and Lebanon. Next we can get to all the countries in Africa where you have ethnic groups straddling borders.

Are you suggesting that nations wage war on a sort of copy-cat, meme basis?

I'm suggesting that letting Russia annex Ukraine without any push back will open the floodgates to that sort of thing. And if you think it won't you are an absolute utter fool.

I suggest reading the military history of dictators.

Have you heard about the people killed by the ukranian nazis (sorry that I offend your sensibility, but this is precisely what they are, try to speak to them on their telegram channels), when they entered Izyum and Kupyansk? Have you heard of civilians in Donetsk who they target on a regular basis?

You first poisoned them with backing their nazi past rewriting, then you backed them with oppressing people who identify themselves with the Russian people. Then you sent them weapons.

I at least will not forget any of that, even after you rewrite all the history you can imagine.

Please stop spreading Russian propaganda.

Please stop replying with premade answers.

Unfortunately, the Azov Brigade is actually a thing.

It is by far not just the Azov batallion.. you just don't have a clue to what is going on, and of course your state and your supposedly objective media have no intention of helping you to find out.

Unfortunately Nazi and/or extremist right-wing ideologies are a staple in militaristic organisations. But you should acknowledge that the Azov Brigade, an arguably Nazi-infatuated militia is broadly following orders from a Jewish president. That should tell you something about how welcomed the Russian Invasion is in the Ukraine.

No they are not. Have you ever served in a military unit?

You're right in that I should've clarified I'm somewhat projecting from the state of the military and law enforcement in Germany. In recent years multiple special operations teams have been dissolved [0][1] due to extremist right-wing ideologies which have been known to exist for years but only after multiple journalistic publications these groups have been dissolved. There's also a history of Nazi and radical right-wing stuff in the regular army. [2][3] Federal Police and the Intelligence Community aren't excluded from this either, especially the intelligence service belonging to the Bundeswehr, the Military Counterintelligence Service MAD. [4] And while I don't have any evidence at hand for this right now and thus it can be dismissed as irrelevant, I have a hunch that it may not be all to different in the various military and law enforcement agencies around Europe.

[0] https://www.dw.com/en/ksk-german-special-forces-company-diss... [1] https://www.dw.com/en/germany-frankfurt-police-unit-to-be-di... [2] https://www.npr.org/2022/12/11/1142141125/the-rise-of-extrem... [3] https://www.economist.com/1843/2022/10/21/how-right-wing-ext... [4] https://www.dw.com/en/germany-logs-rise-in-right-wing-extrem...

"Jewish president.."

I am a jew myself. So? You bought this Zelensky, and now the ukranian nazis are kosher? Since they are murdering Russians, and not Jews, as they did in the past?

Don't twist my words, that's not what I said. Read again.

My point was never that Nazis killing Russian invaders is a morally good thing, but that a military brigade with a higher than normal Nazi-percentage is following orders from a jewish president and is killing other Nazi types in the form of Wagner Group.

Nazis are bad one way or another. But that they are going against their own sentiments should be food for thought for you. But I know you're not here to argue for real, so why do I bother.

"Nazis killing Russian invaders.."

I am talking about Russians who live in Ukraine! They get murdered! Actually, there are very many of them, but for you these people do not exist. They don't have a right for their own identity, according to the west.

Hitchens's razor: "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."

which "evidence"? The one published by you? Or the fact that there were Russian people murdered in Izyum and Kupyansk after ukranians entered there, and for which they proudly posted the pictures of murdered " Russian collaboratirs" on social networks? Or the fact that they dispersed multiple times anti infantry mines inside Donetsk? That they often shell Donetsk living quarters and center just because these are "russians* (in the past they blamed the Russian army for that, but Donetsk people know better).

Go to their telegram channels, and read how they speak about killing Russians, because they are Russians. " Rizat rusnyu".. And before you tell me this is s because if the war, I will remind yoi about the massacre in the trade union house in Odessa, none of the perpetrators punished, and about what was going on in Donbass since 2014. You are just being fed one part of what happens, and also this in a heavily censored form.

> Russian massacred people in Bucha, Irpin, Izyum and got medals for it.

> Russian shill: But what about $irrelevant_topic

Or as we say in Eastern Europe: Moscow can do nothing wrong, because USA is beating black people.

How exactly the murder of Russian people (civilians) by Ukranians is an irrelevant topic?

> Have you heard about the people killed by the ukranian nazis

During WW2, even the German nazis were surprised by how ruthless the Ukrainian nazis were, even they thought the Ukrainian nazis went too far. The Ukrainian nazis are worse than the German nazis.