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Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by downrightmike on Saturday February 18, 2023 @01:14PM (#34849369)
It is a K type recovery, the real economy that 99% of people suffer through hasn't recovered yet.
Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by toomuchtodo on Saturday February 18, 2023 @01:24PM (#34849497)
There is more nuance than that.

Unemployment is at a 60 year low. 10k Boomers retire a day, almost 3 million a year. About a million folks permanently exited the labor force during the pandemic, for a variety of reasons. Wage gains are wrestling with inflation. The benchmark rate increasing will continue to push down equities and real estate while providing risk free return for cash. In the Fed’s attempt to cool the economy, they have arrived at a soft landing.

If workers want wages to accelerate (or job security), they will have to organize and unionize as there is a lot of corporate and political momentum attempting to maintain the status quo of an extraction environment.

Expect to see profits decline as labor power increases and Boomer consumption declines (half of all people over 55 in the US have no retirement savings per the GAO, 1.8 million of them die every year per the CDC, but those folks clinging on to labor participation is also what’s preventing unemployment from declining further). The stock market is not the economy. Structural demographics have the wheel for the next decade. There is no labor shortage, just a shortage of people willing to work for poverty wages.

> Iowa has a stubborn, worsening labor shortage. Burt we don’t believe a bill advancing in the Iowa Legislature loosening child labor laws is a smart or prudent way to address it.

> Under the bill, 14-year-old Iowans would be allowed to work in industrial freezers and meat lockers, unloading vehicles and in laundry facilities. Fifteen-year-olds could work in light manufacturing and could work up to six hours daily. Sixteen-year-olds could work as bartenders with parents’ permission.

> But find two other provisions of the bill are the most troubling. One would permit businesses that conduct on-the-job training programs to seek state waivers allowing 14-17-year-olds to work in jobs related to manufacturing, mining, construction and processing.

Interestingly, the bill would not raise the minimum wage from $7.25/hr or improve worker benefits/working conditions.

Aside from being tragically disturbing, this is the stress you want to see if you care about workers. They are grasping at straws.

https://www.thegazette.com/staff-editorials/lawmakers-should...

Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by com2kid on Saturday February 18, 2023 @01:50PM (#34849794)
Almost no one mentions housing's upwards pressure on wages.

In Seattle, renting a studio in a not-terrible part of town costs over $1500 a month. With prices like that, there is no room for "low paying" jobs.

Accordingly, everyone has had to raise wages, which means some types of businesses are no longer viable. Child care is a good example, between housing prices and higher wages, daycare in Seattle now starts at $22k a year, with well rated daycares charging around 30k a year, and at those prices many daycares are struggling to stay open! Staff turnover is high, employees cannot afford to live within commute distance of their jobs, but wages cannot go up any more because customers can barely afford prices as they are.

The answer is a royal-shit-ton of construction. The answer is the complete demolition of existing zoning laws and a dramatic rethinking of building codes[1]. We need to allow more in-home businesses[2], and allow a wide variety of different styles of housing to be built. The city needs to stop encouraging tall and narrow townhomes that are not livable by families, or really anyone over the age of 40, and stop mixing middle class morality with housing options[3].

If housing goes back to being an 8k a year expense rather than a 20k+ a year expense, wages can stop shooting up.

[1] As an example, if I wanted to add a new bedroom to my current, well insulated house, I'd have to get the entire structure of my roof replaced so I could fit in additional couple inches of insulation. I already had an energy assessment done and they confirmed that this change would have, quite literally, 0 impact on my home's energy usage. The law as it stands prevents me from adding more density to my existing house, so good job there city.

[2] Why can't I buy breakfast sandwiches out of the front of someone's garage as I walk to the bus stop? Why aren't more barbers working out of their house?

[3] Boarding houses and such are famously illegal in most US cities, even though they provide affordable, dense, housing.

Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by seanmcdirmid on Saturday February 18, 2023 @02:21PM (#34850129)
Daycare in Seattle is expensive but not that expensive yet. We paid $1250/month last year, which is a far cry from $22k start.

I’m also a 47 year old who lives in a three story Ballard townhome. 3 of these replaced 1 SFH, so it’s a good deal for density.

Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by com2kid on Saturday February 18, 2023 @07:07PM (#34852557)
Where did you find that price? All the schools I took a look at started at for infant/toddler care started at 1800/month and went up to 3k/month. This is including independent schools (for example https://www.utcs.org/enroll) and quality home based programs.
Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by seanmcdirmid on Sunday February 19, 2023 @12:41AM (#34854853)
We got a spot down the street from our house at Ballard Lutheran, a church-based small non profit. We were paying $1800 before that (in Fremont), which is definitely $22k worthy. We definitely got lucky.

I’m still paying $950/month for my kids before and after school care, so that’s high compared to what we were getting before, but it is tough out there. Im also paying $1100/month for my niece’s daycare in…Spokane.

Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by robocat on Saturday February 18, 2023 @08:51PM (#34853295)
> Almost no one mentions housing's upwards pressure on wages

The causation direction is usually that rising wages cause housing price increases (assuming a tight housing market where houses are in high demand).

People bid against each other for a house, as much as they can just afford the mortgage repayments. If wages go up, then people can get a bigger mortgage, so they bid up to the amount the limit they can mortgage.

I presume a similar effect occurs with rentals - renters compete for limited rental properties and bid up the price to what they can only just manage.

Of course, when you have a huge mortgage (or rental bill), you presumably fight to earn more money, but that is a secondary effect.

Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by com2kid on Saturday February 18, 2023 @08:57PM (#34853338)
> The causation direction is usually that rising wages cause housing price increases (assuming a tight housing market where houses are in high demand).

40k people move to Seattle each year. 20k new housing units are built. It is sadistic musical chairs, the losers end up moving out of the city at best, or homeless at worst. The winners are stuck paying a huge % of their salary to keep a roof over their head.

When I was looking to buy in 2020, around 10-15 new properties came up for sale in "desirable" neighborhoods (e.g. schools aren't trash) each week. You got to know the same people visiting the open houses each week.

It is a complete cluster fuck around here.

Drop 100k houses on the market and watch prices go down.

Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by tastyfreeze on Saturday February 18, 2023 @01:54PM (#34849836)
I don't think that relaxing work restrictions for 14-17 year olds is bad. At 14 I was capable and already doing many of the things that I was prohibited from doing for money. I was also working at 14. About the only work allowed for a 14 year old is retail and custodial work. It would have been great to be allowed to get paid for more kinds of jobs.
Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by toomuchtodo on Saturday February 18, 2023 @02:03PM (#34849936)
The DOL found 100 kids cleaning slaughterhouses across eight states. There will be harm and no accountability for someone else’s profits, just maimed kids with their future trajectory bent down. Fines will be paid as cost of business.

Retail jobs or similar roles with a lower hazard rating? Sure, why not. But mining, construction, or processing facilities? Probably not.

https://time.com/6256728/meatpacking-child-labor/

> More than 100 children—some as young as 13—were employed in hazardous jobs cleaning equipment like skull splitters, brisket saws, and bone cutters in meatpacking plants in eight states over the course of three years, the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) says.

> Last November, DOL first accused PSSI of employing 30 minors, and a court granted the government a temporary restraining order to stop what a judge called “oppressive child labor.”

Read the link, it’s too much to cite it all here, but it’s damning.

Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by breput on Saturday February 18, 2023 @03:28PM (#34850729)
To be clear - and there is no easy way to say it - the proposed Iowa law allowing 14 year olds to work in meatpacking plants is not designed to allow the politician's children to work there.

It is 100% designed as a gift to a major industry in the state to avoid fines[0] when they knowingly employee underage immigrants, primarily Hispanics from Central American, who are easily exploited both in pay and safety.

"On top of that, Senate File 167 would also free businesses from civil liability if a teen gets sick, is injured or killed on the job due to the company's negligence or the teen's negligence. The businesses would only be liable for "gross negligence and willful misconduct"—a much more difficult thing to prove in court."[1]

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/02/17/child-lab...

[1] https://www.newsweek.com/iowa-bill-relaxing-back-child-labor...

Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by tastyfreeze on Saturday February 18, 2023 @04:48PM (#34851447)
How many children were maimed?
Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by toomuchtodo on Saturday February 25, 2023 @04:38PM (#34940731)
Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by t-writescode on Saturday February 18, 2023 @03:27PM (#34850721)
Why should a child need to work?
Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by tastyfreeze on Saturday February 18, 2023 @04:08PM (#34851097)
Because they want to. That is why I worked. Working is a great way to build skills while making a little scratch.
Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by ticviking on Monday February 20, 2023 @01:30PM (#34871092)
Why should young men and women be denied the independence and growth of making their own money, learning valuable skills, and being able to save for a car, or further training.

I went to college after a summer doing day labor. I knew I was unwilling to do that work for those wages long. It also paid for much of my first year.

Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by mlindner on Saturday February 18, 2023 @02:00PM (#34849888)
I'm not sure why people instantly jump to unionization when making these types of claims. You assume that every company is cooperating to pay the same price for labor, when that's not at all the case.

It may only seem like that at the low end because of artificially high minimum wages in some states ($15/hr) which basically makes multiple skill levels of labor all pay the same when they used to pay different.

Also these two statements are in conflict:

> Unemployment is at a 60 year low.

> just a shortage of people willing to work for poverty wages

Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by toomuchtodo on Saturday February 18, 2023 @02:34PM (#34850235)
I argue the minimum wage isn’t artificially high, it’s artificially low. Can you live on $7/hr? In many places, you cannot live on $15/hr either. When was the last time the federal minimum wage was increased? 13 years ago. 20 states do not mandate a minimum wage higher than the federal rate.

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/its-long-past-time-...

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/16/minimum-wage-many-workers-st...

Unions are not just for wages. They are also to counter at will employment and abusive labor practices. To believe they only serve to improve wages is short sighted when looking at the greater macro labor situation, where workers are treated as replaceable and disposable.

Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by tbrownaw on Saturday February 18, 2023 @05:59PM (#34851976)
There's no such thing as an "artificially low" minimum wage, just one that doesn't distort anything because market conditions force everyone to pay more anyway.
Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by toomuchtodo on Saturday February 18, 2023 @06:45PM (#34852358)
If the minimum wage is below a living wage, it is artificially low. The market does not pay you more just because you need more to survive, hence the need for a solid wage floor. The thesis, high level, is: do we care about maximizing for profits (no or artificially low minimum wage)? Or some less profit and humans being able to live with dignity and some form of psychological safety (minimum wage aligned to living wage).
Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by mlindner on Saturday February 18, 2023 @11:42PM (#34854500)
Minimum wages increase the cost of living by making low level services cost more. This is a circular problem.

Also the definition of "living wage" varies wildly depending on what kitchen sink people want to throw into it. People seem to think that everyone deserves to make enough money for luxuries whereas that shouldn't be the case in general.

Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by mlindner on Saturday February 18, 2023 @11:43PM (#34854512)
> Can you live on $7/hr?

Yes, of course. The income taxes are almost zero (or negative), and for one person living by themselves in a studio apartment that's $400 for rent for a cheap studio apartment and $800 a month in groceries and gas, which is quite a lot.

And that's assuming you can't live out of your parents house as you work, which is the suggested way of doing this kind of thing. There's zero reason to move out if you can't afford it. It allows you to save up money and gain skills with less stress.

The "living wage" myth gets repeated way too often.

Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by oivey on Saturday February 18, 2023 @02:07PM (#34849980)
I don’t see how those are at all in conflict. Not many people are unemployed, so employers are having a hard time filling low paying positions. The first bullet is about supply (labor force) while the second is about demand (employers).
Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by mlindner on Saturday February 18, 2023 @02:20PM (#34850123)
I guess I quoted without enough context. In my mind when reading in context they were in conflict, but reading again in isolation I agree they're somehow no longer in conflict.
Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by datavirtue on Saturday February 18, 2023 @02:26PM (#34850162)
Citation for boomer retirement figure? I'm trying to keep an eye on this.
Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by datavirtue on Saturday February 18, 2023 @02:34PM (#34850232)
Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by ITB on Saturday February 18, 2023 @03:23PM (#34850681)
People won’t increase their standard of living by making labor more expensive. This is simply going to accelerate economic momentum towards automatization. And silly efforts to try to tax “each” robot as a human, to provide for those displaced also won’t work. We are about to see a generation or two where social stratification will deepen and we won’t have the tools to mitigate it on time. But after that, we’ll reach a new equilibrium, either doing complementary jobs to machines, or moving to a new type of economy, and everything will be ok for future generations. Or the robots will take over, kill us, and carry the torch, which is also okay.
Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by adventured on Saturday February 18, 2023 @03:30PM (#34850755)
> There is no labor shortage, just a shortage of people willing to work for poverty wages.

The U6 indicates there is increasingly a labor shortgage. It's hovering around 6.5-6.6%. That's lower than the hot economy of the 1990s and it's lower than the rate achieved just prior to the pandemic. That general level has been reached only a few times in decades and only briefly.

Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by thunderbird120 on Saturday February 18, 2023 @01:45PM (#34849741)
Quite the contrary, income growth post-covid has disproportionately favored lower income groups[1]. White collar working professionals captured a disproportionate amount of the growth from the previous recovery as a result of over inflated speculative bubbles resulting from low interest rates lasting nearly a decade. Easy to justify speculative tech companies when you don't need to be profitable any time in the near future, but when interest rates are >0% reality sets in. The idea that the crunch is now hitting the "real" economy is a bit out of touch, but given HN's demographics it's not surprising there's so much screeching.

[1]https://www.dallasfed.org/cd/communities/2022/0808

Re:Why Firms Are Struggling with the U.S. Economy’s Soft Lan... by nobu-mori on Saturday February 18, 2023 @02:06PM (#34849963)
The article talks only about nominal wage increases. It also has this gem:

> Due to the transient nature of pandemic inflation...

Real wages, overall, are decreasing: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/realer.nr0.htm

> Real average hourly earnings for all employees decreased 0.2 percent from December to January, seasonally adjusted

> Real average hourly earnings decreased 1.8 percent, seasonally adjusted, from January 2022 to January 2023