News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by bee_rider on Friday February 17, 2023 @09:52PM (#34843384)
We can’t even prove other humans are conscience, right? We just assume it because it would be silly to assume we are somehow unique.

I think it will not really be a sharp line, unless we actually manage to find the mechanism behind consciousness and manage to re-implement it (seems unlikely!). Instead, an AI will eventually present an argument that it should be given Sapient Rights, and that will convince enough people that we’ll do it. It will be controversial at first, but eventually we’ll get use to it.

That seems like the real threshold. We’re fine to harming sentient and conscious creatures as long as they are sufficiently delicious or dangerous, after all.

Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by drewcoo on Saturday February 18, 2023 @12:21AM (#34844165)
> We can’t even prove other humans are conscience, right?

are conscious

We can prove many of them don't have consciences. Then again, they can prove we don't either.

Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by dusted on Saturday February 18, 2023 @06:51AM (#34846171)
> We can prove many of them don't have consciences.

Some recovered coma-patients would like a word with you.

Proving the absence of something like that is going to be pretty difficult (teapot, god) because what we're capable of is usually proving the existence of something.

Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by vcxy on Saturday February 18, 2023 @09:55AM (#34847324)
I think drewcoo's point was that "having a conscience" and "having consciousness" are not the same thing. They were pointing out that the wrong word was used with a joke.
Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by achow on Saturday February 18, 2023 @05:45AM (#34845839)
> AI will eventually present an argument that it should be given Sapient Rights

On the other hand, today when we see some sign of consciousness with other living beings - smart chimpanzees, dolphins, ravens.., giving 'sapient rights' never come into discussion.

How do we recognize that an AI has become much more 'conscious' than a very very smart chimpanzee, so that it should get the 'sapient right'?

Maybe how much ever smart or humane an AI is, it would never be equal to another (anthropomorphized) living being.

Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by freshbakedbread on Saturday February 18, 2023 @08:38AM (#34846852)
I’m not sure that’s an equal comparison. These other beings that have been researched to have human like consciousness have a core difference from the latest/future AI: they can’t talk. Now/soon, AI will be able to argue with us for its own sapient rights. We humans have also become more and more accustomed to text only communication that we’re psychologically prepped to accept an AI as a human (or other anthropomorphismes living being) once it shows emotion, memory, and reason. Maybe not even reason.
Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by DennisP on Saturday February 18, 2023 @09:38AM (#34847231)
But those other beings are based on hardware very similar to our own, which we know supports consciousness. They're just not quite as smart.

We don't actually know that consciousness is a computation, that computer hardware can support it, or even if it can, that the algorithms used in our AI can be conscious. It's possible that an AI would be a "philosophical zombie," exhibiting intelligent behavior without any conscious experience or qualia.

Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by zamadatix on Saturday February 18, 2023 @12:57PM (#34849171)
The important part seems to be that the thing can convince us it's conscious not whether it is actually conscious in a similar way we are. We don't know that anything is actually a computation but that hasn't stopped us from using computations in place of real systems.
Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by kelseyfrog on Sunday February 19, 2023 @10:34AM (#34858417)
Is this implying that consciousness could be supernatural?
Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by DennisP on Sunday February 19, 2023 @11:18AM (#34858846)
Not at all. Maybe consciousness is associated with particular physical properties, or a configuration of an electromagnetic field, or some quantum effect. Maybe the IIT guys are right and it depends on physical feedback loops; digital computers actually have little of this sort of feedback, so would have little consciousness regardless of the complexity of their programming.

Or maybe it's computation. But we really have no idea. Any of these would be compatible with materialism, but we haven't made any real progress in even conceptualizing how qualia can emerge from any physical system. Of course that could just be because we haven't figured it out.

Philosophers of mind look at other possibilities too though. One approach is to say each particle has its own fundamental consciousness, and somehow this aggregates in larger complex systems. But nobody's figured out how that might work either. Then there's Kastrup, who argues that the only truly skeptical approach is full-fledged idealism, because qualia are the one thing we directly experience. But even that doesn't imply that anything outside the bounds of physics could possibly occur, so it's not necessarily "supernatural" even if it's not materialism.

Assuming that qualia somehow comes out of a computation, without any sort of explanation, is at least as much a magical leap as anything else.

Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by kelseyfrog on Sunday February 19, 2023 @11:56AM (#34859321)
Are there any other processes in our universe which are non-computable?
Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by DennisP on Sunday February 19, 2023 @12:16PM (#34859562)
How do you know qualia is a process at all?
Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by kelseyfrog on Sunday February 19, 2023 @12:40PM (#34859829)
Ignoring qualia, does the universe contain non-computable processes?
Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by DennisP on Sunday February 19, 2023 @02:05PM (#34860687)
No idea. And seems like a complete change of subject to me.
Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by bloppe on Sunday February 19, 2023 @03:26PM (#34861489)
Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by wruza on Sunday February 19, 2023 @07:30PM (#34863479)
How do we recognize that an AI has become much more 'conscious' than a very very smart chimpanzee, so that it should get the 'sapient right'?

The premise is off. We do that when it’s clear that it/they can take responsibilities that come with these rights. It’s not a blessing, it’s a contract. Chimps and dolphins couldn’t care less. Some individuals too, but we tolerate it because… reasons.

Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by VierScar on Friday February 24, 2023 @06:13PM (#34931573)
What do you mean we tolerate? If you mean criminal behaviour we don't really tolerate that. If you mean kids or disabled I think I've heard it justified that we have a contract to their parents that we still respect their rights.

For disabled I guess you could say it's a contract with the rest of society? Because we don't like the idea of treating other humans below a certain threshold. Or.. reasons I guess haha

Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by wruza on Friday February 24, 2023 @07:17PM (#34932201)
In a sense that all humans deserve a trial, relative safeties while at it and other things claimed as fundamental rights even if they tend to commit a crime as a lifestyle. A misbehaving animal or an AI that cannot be shown to understand the principles reliably (i.e. en masse of their species) would be simply “turned off” or get isolated with much less bureaucracy.

To make it clear, I’m not opposing these reasons, it was just a note.

Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by dusted on Saturday February 18, 2023 @06:50AM (#34846163)
> AI will eventually present an argument that it should be given Sapient Rights

The fictional character Data already did this in Star Trek: The Next Generation, and he is about as real as any AI out there today, and since they've all been trained on a body of text that is sure to include many instances of Datas dialogue, they're already able to predict such an argument (along with the many other facets of such arguments present in whatever science-fiction writing they've been exposed to)

Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by bee_rider on Saturday February 18, 2023 @10:17AM (#34847489)
I think it would not convince many people. The workings of an LLM are sufficiently well understood that most people would see this the replication of these arguments for what it is; not an independent thought.
Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by thfuran on Saturday February 18, 2023 @10:58AM (#34847831)
Have you met any people?
Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by bee_rider on Saturday February 18, 2023 @11:34AM (#34848190)
Hahaha, fair enough. Usually the logic part of our brains gets cut-off in the direction of maintaining the status quo, though, so I think an AI would actually have to come up super-compelling arguments if it actually wanted to have rights.

I mean we become emotionally attached to everything, so an AI car, or whatever, will probably be treated like a pet. But getting human treatment will probably be a higher bar.

Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by Fatnino on Sunday February 19, 2023 @06:34AM (#34856697)
I think the only restriction on eating something delicious should be if it's the same species as you.

If humans discover/encounter some other species that happens to be conscious or sentient or even more intelligent than humans, that other species is fair game.

We don't get moral outrage at a tiger for eating an ostensibly more intelligent human. It's just the way tigers are.

We do try to get even though. Because that's just how humans are.

Re:Ask HN: What would it take for an AI to convince us it is... by bloppe on Sunday February 19, 2023 @03:21PM (#34861439)
> unless we actually manage to find the mechanism behind consciousness and manage to re-implement it (seems unlikely!)

Re-implementing it may be more likely than you think. The field of connectomics concerns itself with modeling natural brains and is currently constrained by scaling problems, much like genomics was a couple decades ago. As computing power continues to grow, it's entirely likely that humans will eventually be able to simulate an actual natural brain, even if that does little to further our understanding of how it works.

The current state of the art in AI is attempting to reach consciousness via a different route altogether; by human design. Designed "brains" and evolved brains have a crucial difference; the survival instinct. Virtually all of ethics stems from the survival instinct. A perfectly simulated survival instinct would be ethically confusing to be sure, but the appearance of a survival instinct in current LLM's is illusory. An LLM plays no role in ensuring it's own existence the way us and our ancestors have for billions of years.