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Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by abandonliberty on Friday February 17, 2023 @09:33AM (#34835080)
Don't worry, you can find plenty of examples where society or medicine ignored the needs or voices of women.

Combative narratives are suboptimal. They are alienating to those you complain about, when obtaining their support would further your cause. It's possible, and more effective, to advance men's rights without complaining about women, or any other rights movement.

Not everything has to be Us vs Them. I'd much rather live in a world where it isn't.

Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by willcipriano on Friday February 17, 2023 @10:09AM (#34835513)
> advance men's rights without complaining about women

Are you brave enough to give the same advice to women?

Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by giraffe_lady on Friday February 17, 2023 @10:48AM (#34835984)
Do women have any problems not caused by men?
Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by mihaic on Friday February 17, 2023 @11:03AM (#34836255)
Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but I've personally seen plenty of peer-pressure from women to women, to enforce some conformity.

Often it's the high status women that spend the most effort on enforcing established social norms that hurt most women.

Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by willcipriano on Friday February 17, 2023 @11:39AM (#34836871)
I've been following this issue for decades and early on a lot of it was supposed to be around body image issues. It was claimed that men had these impossible beauty standards and womens issues were largely due to not living up to them. Then the internet became popular and it became possible to quantify the gender of people making these body shaming comments, turns out it's mostly other women. Online dating further proved that men are attracted to all sorts of women and while a specific man may have certain things he prefers, men in general are very forgiving, in fact it turns out women are the ones with impossible standards, they all chase after the same 1% of men.

Then there was the wage gap stuff, it was popular for a while, and as that was looked into we found women make different choices at work, they take more sick days, go on more vacations and work less overtime, not to mention they tend to choose less demanding jobs in the first place.

So now it's this undefinable and unfalsifiable "patriarchy", this new one doesn't really make specific claims but rest assured men are the source of all the worlds problems.

Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by willcipriano on Friday February 17, 2023 @11:01AM (#34836218)
Of course not they are perfect and without flaw.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect

Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by dang on Saturday February 18, 2023 @02:21PM (#34850132)
Please don't take HN threads further into ideological flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by tablespoon on Friday February 17, 2023 @11:00AM (#34836200)
> Do women have any problems not caused by men?

No, of course not. It's axiomatic that all women's problems are ultimately caused by men.

Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by giraffe_lady on Friday February 17, 2023 @11:18AM (#34836546)
thank u
Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by dang on Saturday February 18, 2023 @02:20PM (#34850116)
I don't know if this was an extreme case of ideological battle or trolling, but either way it's against the site guidelines, so please don't do it here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by marcellus23 on Friday February 17, 2023 @11:22AM (#34836609)
Case in point.
Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by Der_Einzige on Friday February 17, 2023 @12:06PM (#34837268)
Enormous amounts of problems. My own wife says that she hates other women far more than she hates any man she knows...
Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by Conscat on Friday February 17, 2023 @12:19PM (#34837449)
This sounds like you haven't heard of patriarchy yet.
Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by seandoe on Friday February 17, 2023 @10:15AM (#34835566)
I don't think parent's comment was combative at all. Simply, their opinion and/or observation. If you don't think we live in a time when men's (white especially) interests are being attacked you're delusional. They are at the bottom of the identity politics war. Ideas of toxic masculinity, undeserved privilege, power, etc. are being touted as gospel by the educated, political class.

Maybe it's all deserved. Paying for generations of misbehavior or something. It doesn't really matter. The reality is that political popularity and public "good graces" _are_ a zero sum game. Politics are currently very much us vs them. And men are very much them right now.

Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by EliRivers on Friday February 17, 2023 @10:21AM (#34835632)
How long does it take to filter up? White men remain over-represented amongst the rich and powerful, and in senior positions. Is there some level in society where this flips around and suddenly white men are at the top, or is this some kind of time delay effect and in a century or so, we'll see white men at the bottom at all levels?
Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by ChuckNorris89 on Friday February 17, 2023 @11:06AM (#34836301)
>White men remain over-represented amongst the rich and powerful, and in senior positions.

If you live in a majority white country, why is this a problem? Statistically it's inevitable you'll get mostly white people at the top if those are your demographics.

Also in my country women are often in top leadership positions, and out of merit, not out of some pro-feminist corporate PR agenda.

Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by foldr on Friday February 17, 2023 @03:37PM (#34840199)
“Over-represented” means (obviously) out of proportion to their prevalence in the population.
Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by lordfrito on Friday February 17, 2023 @11:12AM (#34836433)
Meanwhile the majority of white men who are neither rich nor powerful find themselves at the bottom of the politically correct social order. Not that anyone cares anymore. /s
Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by JohnFen on Friday February 17, 2023 @01:51PM (#34838717)
> If you don't think we live in a time when men's (white especially) interests are being attacked you're delusional.

Nonsense. This is just a rhetorical technique to try to dismiss people who hold opinions that differ from yours without having to actually engage them.

Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by seandoe on Friday February 17, 2023 @02:34PM (#34839268)
It's interesting that you claim my statement is nonsense. That seems hypocritically dismissive. Ask for evidence or simply disagree. By saying nonsense are you implying that it's not possible that men's interests could be discounted by the popular opinion of today? How about the amount of funding and attention that breast cancer gets vs prostate cancer? Once again I'm not interested in why, just the current state.
Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by JohnFen on Friday February 17, 2023 @02:40PM (#34839352)
I think you misunderstood the part that I was calling "nonsense". It was the part where anyone who disagrees with you must be delusional.

I wasn't commenting on your opinion about men one way or the other.

Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by seandoe on Friday February 17, 2023 @02:49PM (#34839498)
ah ok, that's fair.
Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by lumb63 on Friday February 17, 2023 @02:56PM (#34839628)
I'll cover up their rhetorical technique with statistics:

Women have outpaced men in Bachelor's degree completions since 1981, and Master's degrees since 1986. At present they are 57.7% of Bachelor's degree recipients and 60.7% of Master's degrees [0]. You might argue that most of the advance women made was prior to the year 2000, so it isn't reflective of trends today.

Women have a "struggle for reproductive rights". Abortion and contraceptives are "critical reproductive healthcare services", according to the White House [1]. Men cannot have abortions, cannot take birth control pills, cannot receive birth control shots or implants, cannot obtain IUDs, and (mostly) cannot choose to have a child without the support of their partner. I suppose, then, men do not even have a chance at having what is a "critical reproductive healthcare service" and are thus inherently deprived.

Women are the heads of four out of five single parent households [2]. Put differently, four out of five men do not obtain custody of their children in situations where the parents do not live together.

Male life expectancy is more than five years less than female life expectancy in the US [3].

The bigger issue than all of this, to me, is the psychological aspect of this discussion that I cannot quantify with large-scale statistics. When men's disadvantages are brought up, society generally shouts "shut up". Since I left my original comment, I have been told that my post was a "hollow unsubstantiated rant", an "incredibly sexist framing", "disingenuous" and "not constructive", "combative" and "alienating". Can you imagine similar attacks being levied against a woman arguing in support of abortion? I sure cannot. Again, I do not know how to quantify this, but the experience of never mentioning an issue which impacts men for fear of being similarly shot down is in the back of my mind every day, and I'd imagine many men face similar thoughts. The thought police hold far more sway over my discourse than I'd like.

[0]: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d20/tables/dt20_318.10.a...

[1]: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-action...

[2]: https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publicatio...

[3]: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr71/nvsr71-01.pdf

Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by hungryforcodes on Friday February 17, 2023 @10:38AM (#34835838)
This is a weird statement. His comment wasn't combatative at all, and additionally men have been very marginalized in anglophone societies (USA, UK, AUS, CAD, etc) in the past 20 years by the media (just look at those ads where the guy's only function in his family is to cook steak on the BBQs, while the woman brilliantly manages everything like a CEO :P ) , while women have been celebrated. The original idea of all this when I first encountered it in the 90s was something called "equality". But it's been thrown out the window totally.

Even if you don't agree with it, people are allowed to express how they feel. Passionate (and this is hardly even passionate -- it's just a statement of this person's perception of the state of things), are ok. Sometimes even needed to spark discussion. He feels things aren't equal anymore -- and they aren't. Again in anglophone societies....

Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by Manuel_D on Friday February 17, 2023 @11:13AM (#34836441)
Combative narratives are unavoidable if another movement is pushing for something contradictory to your movement. Pro-choice movements are inevitably running into conflict with anti-abortion movements because their desires are directly contradictory. Likewise, a group seeking to eliminate gender discrimination is going to directly run up against a group advocating for gender quotas.
Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by snowwrestler on Friday February 17, 2023 @11:19AM (#34836551)
Pro-choice and anti-abortion movements are not necessarily contradictory, as there are many services and strategies that are proven to reduce abortions, aside from criminal penalties.

For example, the broad and free availability of sex education and contraception greatly reduces accidental pregnancies, which are a leading cause of elective abortions. And genetic screenings and counseling can help women identify risk factors for inheritable developmental issues and decide whether to have children, or pursue alternatives like adoption.

Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by Manuel_D on Friday February 17, 2023 @11:23AM (#34836626)
Sure, now ask them "should elective abortion be legal?" And then you'll immediately see the conflict between the two positions. The fact that they may both support contraception is whataboutism. The core objectives of the two groups, are indeed directly contradictory.
Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by snowwrestler on Sunday February 19, 2023 @11:15AM (#34858812)
You missed the point, which is that there is a difference between the substance of an issue and the combative political campaigns set up around an issue.

The substance is not binary; there is substantial overlap and gray areas. Most things are not zero-sum. But it’s beneficial politically to set up an “us vs them” mentality.

So yes, you’re right that the people are in conflict. But the point is, much of that is artificial.

Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by Manuel_D on Sunday February 19, 2023 @03:09PM (#34861315)
The substances may overlap in some areas, but the defining goal of two groups are often directly contradictory. The goal of a group whose primary goal is to criminalize abortion is directly contradictory to a group that wants to make or keep abortion legal. The fact that they may both support contraceptives is missing the forest for the trees, the primary goals of the two groups are indeed directly contradictory. Achieving the goal of one necessarily means the other fails in their goal. There's nothing artificial about this.
Re:Declining Sperm Count: Much More Than You Wanted to Know by readenough on Friday February 17, 2023 @11:56AM (#34837122)
You are correct that those two movements are not completely contradictory. First, it must not be assumed that everyone who is pro-choice will always chose abortion. Second, neither the pro-choice nor anti-abortion movements seem to have a large scale plan for the care of children born from unwanted pregnancies. So there are areas that are not contradictory.