News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re: by closeparen on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @11:55AM (#34806750)
I grew up at a time when a computer was a thing that any website you accidentally clicked on could totally and permanently hijack. I don't miss it. One-click zero-friction execution of arbitrary code with the full privileges of your user account was a bad and wrong design. Malware scanning, signatures, and heuristics were a hilariously inadequate answer to the risks. One of the best things that's ever happened in computing is moving beyond all this.
Re: by sublinear on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:20PM (#34807232)
I think this is a false dichotomy.

Nobody sane is arguing for a vulnerable computer.

The desire is just less friction and fewer restrictions on what code can be written and executed by the owner on the device. Really this is what virtualization is for, and the only thing keeping mobile operating systems working as they do is that most consumers don't demand the same features as businesses, but in my opinion they should.

Re: by User23 on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:23PM (#34807276)
I'm not even seeing a false dichotomy, it's just wrong. Running arbitrary code from the Internet isn't at all the same thing as running arbitrary code that you yourself just wrote.
Re: by closeparen on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:52PM (#34807737)
Most malware is executed by the machine's owner in some sense. The level of friction that establishes that the owner knows what's going on and actually intends to execute particular code with particular privileges is not small. It's important that it be surmountable, but it's not small.
Re: by sublinear on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @01:34PM (#34808427)
In a properly virtualized environment it doesn't matter since all resources are decoupled from the environment the software runs in.

This gives all the control back to the user. Nobody should be bullied into just accepting all permissions the developer wants. The developer should be forced to gracefully degrade their UX when their dependencies are denied without preventing access to the core service and should be sued into oblivion when they violate this basic promise under accessibility laws.

From a developer perspective virtualization would also make accomplishing this much easier since they no longer have to be limited to crappy APIs that are not just sometimes vulnerable and incompatible but restricted on purpose under bogus pretense.

Re: by closeparen on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @11:09PM (#34814892)
That's the dream. But while the browser is now sandboxed well enough to stand up to the wide open internet, it can't compete with native on performance. And native can't (yet) be sandboxed as well as the browser without giving up its performance. Power-constrained mobile environments will likely be the last to fall on that one. I look forward to it, though!
Re: by behnamoh on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @01:07PM (#34807997)
> The level of friction that establishes that the owner knows what's going on and actually intends to execute particular code with particular privileges is not small.

That level of friction is $99 :-)

Re: by ttubrian on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @01:58PM (#34808790)
But the owner is able to bundle any arbitrary code into an app and run it locally on their own phone for 7 days.

Then it auto-deletes and there's nothing you can do about it.

The only class of malware that the currently-mandated friction is preventing is the kind that appears benevolent for 7 days then strikes on day 8.

Re: by closeparen on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @10:45PM (#34814729)
The time limit prevents this from becoming a normal distribution channel for legitimate apps, which would condition users to click mindlessly through it. It an attacker wants to try, most people will think it’s weird and scary. But developers only need to do basic developer things (cut builds) to get around it. Pretty clever if you ask me.
Re: by bakuninsbart on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @02:16PM (#34809066)
There are child safety locks, and it is ok to have them as a default on computers as well, but there should be a way to turn it off and lose warranty. (And they should probably be renamed to something less inflammatory)

For me it is just a terrible feeling to not really own a device I bought, so I avoid them wherever I can. Annoyingly, this is getting increasingly more difficult.

As a potentially interesting aside, today lack of programmability seems to be a sign of a maturing market. I recently researched e-cigarettes that I can program to time me, those that have a computer in them basically all allow for writing your own programs. Same with the smart watch market, although Apple is trying its best to ruin that as well.

Re: by angryasian on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:01PM (#34806880)
let not be naive in saying that its still not possible. It is but a lot less. Companies have been getting better at bug bounties, education, and in general people working more with the technology
Re: by closeparen on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:10PM (#34807040)
A huge part of the improvement has been sandboxing, code signing, and trusted distribution channels.

In the Windows XP era, a freeware game or utility you downloaded turning out to be a virus was 100% your fault. It wasn’t a defect in Windows that your whole computer got owned, that was just how computers worked. Crazy to me that people want to go back there.

Re: by adql on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:24PM (#34807287)
Well, tech-competent people mostly survived that without scratch so they want same experience of actually owning machine today as they had 10 years ago.

The push for containerization and sandboxing is in right direction if user have control over it.

By all means run the new app I downloaded in nice little box and ask me when it wants to access any file from outside of it, but if I want to I should have option to give it permission to whatever I want.

Re: by JohnFen on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:31PM (#34807402)
> Crazy to me that people want to go back there.

It's not so crazy if you understand that there are people who want to be able to have complete control over their own machines. These modern security measures trade that control for security.

But there are many circumstances where that tradeoff is undesirable. Perhaps the machine will never be connected to a network. Perhaps the owner of that machine is willing and able to take responsibility for the security. Etc.

Re: by closeparen on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:42PM (#34807572)
Then they can use devices and operating systems with that philosophy. A Linux sysadmin absolutely can and should be free to do whatever they need to their company’s servers. Instead people are angry about the existence of any consumer device with barriers to arbitrary code execution.
Re: by Tijdreiziger on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @01:29PM (#34808372)
The broader problem then becomes the smartphone duopoly. You can choose Android instead of Apple, but this is a compromise in terms of privacy. You can also choose an alternative Android distribution or a Linux phone, but this is a compromise in terms of being able to run apps.

Video game consoles are just as locked down as iPhones, but ~nobody complains about that since you can just buy a PC instead. There is no good equivalent (in terms of compatibility and privacy) to iPhone/Android, though.

Re: by closeparen on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @10:52PM (#34814773)
The fact that Android is a compromise in terms of privacy is not incidental to but because of its prioritization of app developers' freedom.
Re: by Tijdreiziger on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @11:19PM (#34814958)
Does not track. Windows before Windows 8 gave developers freedom, was private, and was the most popular computing platform on the planet.
Re: by closeparen on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @11:34PM (#34815069)
There was nothing to stop any .exe from reading all your files and phoning home with them, which is even worse than Android. It was private insofar as your OEM and all the third party developers whose products you downloaded were trustworthy, which is not too far off of Android.

Lenovo was one of the more famous abusers of its freedom [0] so sticking with popular and well known consumer brands did not save you, just as I expect it doesn’t now with Android.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfish

Re: by Tijdreiziger on Thursday February 16, 2023 @01:50AM (#34815827)
OK, we are talking about two separate forms of privacy here.

You are talking about privacy from rogue app developers. I certainly laud Android (and iOS) for their approach here, and I agree that the situation is much better than on desktop operating systems.

I, on the other hand, am talking about privacy from the OS developer, i.e. from tracking that's built-in to the OS by the OS developer. The situation on Android is certainly much worse here than any other operating system.

(One could argue that the tracking is not built into the Android OS, but into Google's Play Services. Since all mainstream Android vendors ship Play Services, this is a distinction without difference.)

It is possible to make an OS which is private in both senses. De-Googled Android distributions and Flatpak/Snap prove this. So far, there has been no mainstream interest in this, though.

Re: by red-iron-pine on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:22PM (#34807256)
No, that was absolutely how Windows worked.

XP security was atrocious, and there were already better, functional models of how to structure things out there.

Re: by iggldiggl on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @04:55PM (#34811197)
> and there were already better, functional models of how to structure things out there.

Even today, no file sandboxing solution I'm aware of really properly handles more complex file formats that don't consist of a single atomic file.

Only macOS goes beyond the simple "allow the user to pick a single file or directory and that's that" model, and even then according to the documentation I found it only handles simple sidecar files that only differ in the file extension from the main file, but still breaks down for anything more complicated than that.

Re: by gjpolly on Friday February 17, 2023 @06:31AM (#34833426)
Those are the same concerns I hear from my grandma.

Fortunately systems are designed for multi users, with sandboxes and access controls and heuristics now, and it's less of a problem for most people.

Our ability to sideload apps, or install pwa that are full featured doesn't need to affect your safe little bubble of protection. You'll be ok, I promise.