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Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by ntonozzi on Monday February 13, 2023 @03:30PM (#34779911)
Software patents are a huge drag on small companies and innovative large ones, it's just that large companies are better able to handle the costs. Our world would be better if we ended software patents. Check out EFF's campaign to end software patents: https://endsoftwarepatents.org.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by VWWHFSfQ on Monday February 13, 2023 @03:38PM (#34780045)
This isn't a software patent.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by nhchris on Monday February 13, 2023 @03:46PM (#34780170)
Yes it is:

Voice Tech's patents, according to their abstract, involve "receiving audio data from [a] mobile device at the computer. The audio data is decoded into a command. A software program that the command was provided for is determined. At least one process is executed at the computer in response to the command. Output data is generated at the computer in response to executing at least one process at the computer. The output data is transmitted to the mobile device."

https://www.theregister.com/2020/02/12/mycroft_patent_troll/

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by NotYourLawyer on Monday February 13, 2023 @04:24PM (#34780789)
The abstract isn’t the part that matters.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by bonzini on Monday February 13, 2023 @06:37PM (#34782612)
Take patent US9794348[1] which covers some specific heuristics that can be used to decide which voice command to execute. The only remotely interesting part of the claims (the "audio command interface") is definitely software, the detailed description even says that it could expose an API and other applications could use it to expose voice commands.

[1] see https://patents.google.com/patent/US9794348

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by NotYourLawyer on Monday February 13, 2023 @06:49PM (#34782753)
I wasn’t taking a position about whether this qualifies as a software patent. Just pointing out that the abstract is near-worthless in making any evaluation of a patent.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by VWWHFSfQ on Monday February 13, 2023 @03:49PM (#34780234)
This is different. This isn't a patent of an algorithm or similar implementation in software. This is a means of controlling a device by decoded voice commands via another device. It's not a software patent in the way FOSS people mean when they say to ban software patents.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by AnthonyMouse on Monday February 13, 2023 @03:59PM (#34780372)
If software that runs on a prior art general purpose computer can infringe a patent, it's a software patent.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by EarlKing on Monday February 13, 2023 @03:57PM (#34780347)
Describing a shovel as an "emplacement tool" does not make it not a shovel. Similarly, dressing up a software patent to disguise its functionality as a software patent does not make it cease to be a software patent.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by yjftsjthsd-h on Monday February 13, 2023 @05:30PM (#34781789)
If the difference between a device allegedly infringing and not infringing is whether it's running a certain piece of software, then obviously the software is what's patented.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by GoblinSlayer on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @02:38AM (#34786554)
Formally it's intended as a hardware patent due to involvement of computer. But since it doesn't invent hardware, it's merely invalid patent.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by zoobab on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @06:59AM (#34788166)
"it's intended as a hardware patent due to involvement of computer"

All software patents are hardware patents since the program runs on the computer.

That's the loophole that the EPO has been using to allow software patents to be granted anyway, despite their exclusion in the law.

After the failed attempt to codify their practice in law in 2005, the large companies and the patent industry decided to install their own court, the Unified Patent Court, which might go live next 1st March.

They broke the rule of law as they needed the signature of the UK, with the blessing of the European Commission Thierry Breton, the guy who was ex-CEO of Technicolor, who made a fortune with MP3 patents.

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by GoblinSlayer on Thursday February 16, 2023 @02:07AM (#34815908)
How will they enforce decisions of their court?
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by puffoflogic on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @07:51AM (#34788572)
It's only an invalid patent if you manage to get review before SCOTUS. Otherwise your road ends at the federal circuit which has yet to meet a patent it doesn't like.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by GoblinSlayer on Thursday February 16, 2023 @02:06AM (#34815906)
Pretty sure you can go up from federal court? It happened.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by ikekkdcjkfke on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @06:03AM (#34787776)
How isn't this an obvious invention?
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by rektide on Monday February 13, 2023 @03:46PM (#34780182)
But it took a million dollars to defend that it wasn't one patent, from one person.

Seems like a very very real reason to be horrified by software patents.

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by ntonozzi on Monday February 13, 2023 @03:58PM (#34780363)
Can you explain why it's not what EFF means? To me, the part of software patents that doesn't make sense is that you can patent any possible combination of ideas — in this case the combination of using voice and remotely controlling a computer — and it's considered a valid patent.

In my opinion, this is like patenting putting a blue Lego brick on a red brick because nobody bothered to write down or patent that particular combination before. There's no core novelty here, and obviously Mycroft was not stealing profits from Voice Tech Corp.

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by CameronNemo on Monday February 13, 2023 @03:48PM (#34780205)
Honestly the entire patent system should be thrown out / winded down. Nothing but dead weight, especially when huge countries like China completely ignore them.

We can find other ways to finance "innovation".

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by RobotToaster on Monday February 13, 2023 @04:51PM (#34781213)
I honestly can't think of a single incidence of the patent system promoting innovation in the last 20 years.

For small companies patents are basically worthless, a big company can just play legal ropeadope until they run out of money.

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by bdowling on Monday February 13, 2023 @06:16PM (#34782396)
A small company (e.g., a startup) will never sue to enforce its patents because suing is too expensive. Because they won’t sue, they won’t be able to license the patents to anyone.

For a startup, however, patents can still have value in at least the following ways:

1. Patents on improvements can discourage established competitors who are using the same or similar improvements from suing the startup for infringing the competitors' patents.

2. A potential acquirer may want to acquire the company for its patents. The acquirer may be an established competitor who does have the resources to assert the patents against other competitors.

3. Patents encourage investors who see patents as residual assets that would be liquidated if the company fails.

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by em3rgent0rdr on Monday February 13, 2023 @08:20PM (#34783806)
Value (1) illustrates the absurdity of the patent system. Innovation, the thing the patent system ostensibly protects, is put at risk by..patents. And so the value of a patent for inventors is to protect their innovation from...patents.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by bdowling on Monday February 13, 2023 @08:58PM (#34784117)
Our patent system allows an inventor to patent an improvement to another's patented invention. Ideally, that should (1) encourage early inventors to continue to invest in improving their inventions before someone else does and (2) encourage new inventors to improve on existing, still-patented inventions by giving them ways to profit from their improvements.

There are very few places in law where you can legally stake a claim within someone else's territory and exploit it for profit.

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by bdowling on Thursday February 16, 2023 @07:41AM (#34817929)
To be clear, that anyone can improve upon anyone else’s invention and claim their improvement as their own, to the exclusion of the prior inventor, is what drives innovation.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by solomatov on Monday February 13, 2023 @06:25PM (#34782505)
>I honestly can't think of a single incidence of the patent system promoting innovation in the last 20 years.

Without patents pharmaceutical industry would be nearly impossible, i.e. it's very hard to come up with a compound but very easy to synthesize it as soon as it's known.

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by GabeIsko on Monday February 13, 2023 @06:34PM (#34782594)
I'm not sure that making it harder for people to synthesize medicine is a good thing.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by giantrobot on Monday February 13, 2023 @06:56PM (#34782823)
If it costs a billion dollars per medicine to develop someone needs to pay that cost. If you don't have some sort of government medicine research branch with a budget of tens of billions to develop medicines then private companies want a way to recoup their investment and then make a profit.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by malwrar on Monday February 13, 2023 @08:41PM (#34783966)
Is it impossible for government to directly fund research into needed medicines? It’s hard to see a value in this arbitrary middle layer between public interest and research. The amount of money people spend on drugs is staggering.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by GabeIsko on Monday February 13, 2023 @08:45PM (#34784010)
This is too big of a discussion to have in hacker news comments. But the decline in R&D spending, the amount of grants drug companies accept from the government, the amount of government funded research that goes into new medicines, the current state of healthcare spending in the US compared to other countries, the politics of it, the success of companies such as Cost Plus Drugs, and the amount of new medicines that come from countries that have much higher medical regulations all point to the fact that this is a bad system. I have worked on a few healthcare projects, and the general consensus is that it is unsustainable to have a system where health outcomes decline, even if profits are going up. It has been prevailing wisdom that patents help recoup the (admittedly enormous when you factor in clinical trials) cost of developing new drugs, but it has put the US especially into a really awful healthcare situation compared to other nations.

Long story short, there are enough sick people to provide medicine to and have a profitable business through a high volume of care, and governments are much better at providing long term financial stability than private corporations to burden the necessarily regulatory costs.

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by jonathankoren on Monday February 13, 2023 @06:46PM (#34782722)
The pharmaceutical routinely pays companies not to produce generics of drugs that aren't patented, so I'm a bit confused by this statement.

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/topics/competition-enforceme...

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/pharmaceutical-companies-pay-...

https://www.justice.gov/usao-edpa/pr/three-generic-pharmaceu...

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by CameronNemo on Monday February 13, 2023 @07:05PM (#34782933)
Pharmaceutical research can be funded with public money. Bounty programs, grants, et cetera. A lot easier to manage those than the obtuse patent bureaucracy.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by moffkalast on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @05:59AM (#34787754)
Patents aren't there to promote innovation, they usually do the opposite so the original inventor can make bank. There's no competition or incentive to perfect your product because you're a state enforced monopoly.

Take FDM 3D printers for example. Stratasys figured out and patented the first one almost 35 years ago and then proceeded to do fuck all with it, selling mediocre garbage for sky high prices. After it expired in 2009 3D printing rapidly became a whole industry with dirt cheap hardware, enabling millions to make things never before thought possible. We could've reached that point in the early 90s if it weren't for patents.

Sure one might say, it also forces the patentee to disclose the inns and outs of the invention, but frankly those patent descriptions are often as bare bones as possible and you'd get there reverse engineering any product far sooner than 20 years.

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by resonious on Monday February 13, 2023 @07:04PM (#34782928)
I have a family member who used to work in pharmaceutical R&D. I personally know nothing about the industry so maybe it's nonsense, but she once told me that nobody would make anything in that industry if it wasn't for patents. R&D costs are astronomical. Once you release a drug, it needs high margins in order to make back the R&D costs. But the problem is: once you release your drug it immediately gets reverse engineered and other facilities can mass-produce it and undercut you hard.

Anyway it's likely I misunderstood something there since again I know nothing. But after hearing that, I considered that while software patents are obviously bad, maybe they make some sense in other industries.

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by CameronNemo on Monday February 13, 2023 @07:06PM (#34782942)
Pharmaceutical research can be funded with public money (and often already are to some degree). Bounty programs, grants, et cetera. A lot easier to manage those than the obtuse patent bureaucracy.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by nceqs3 on Monday February 13, 2023 @07:39PM (#34783422)
Why do people comment so confidently on industries they don't understand?
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by CameronNemo on Monday February 13, 2023 @07:53PM (#34783578)
Why do people jump to defend monopolistic, price-gouging pharmaceutical companies?
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by nickff on Monday February 13, 2023 @08:46PM (#34784017)
The parent didn’t defend anyone.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by CameronNemo on Monday February 13, 2023 @09:26PM (#34784397)
Yeah because the parent comment had nothing material to say. They basically just told me to shut up for no reason other than "you have no idea what you are talking about (but I do)".
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by aesh2Xa1 on Monday February 13, 2023 @09:22PM (#34784361)
What don't you like about what the commenter said? Here's support for his comment:

https://cepr.net/we-can-develop-new-drugs-without-patent-mon...

> While drug companies do operate to make a profit, the part of the story that Nisen misses is that the profit does not have to be gained through patent monopolies. Suppose that the U.S. and other governments put up research funding, which private corporations like Gilead could bid on based on their expertise and track record. In this case, a condition of the research is that all patents would be in the public domain (the companies were already paid for their work) and all results would be fully public as soon as practical.

The above comes from Dean Baker, who seems to be confident and credentialed.

https://cepr.net/staff-member/dean-baker/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Baker

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by b3lvedere on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @06:00AM (#34787759)
So help us understand then why this industry could not exist without patents?
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by tinus_hn on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @09:08AM (#34789448)
Because the requirements for anything health related are so absurdly high, the investment required to put something on the market is also absurdly high. You can’t make that investment if the next guy can then just go and sell your product for a quarter.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by b3lvedere on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @09:39AM (#34789933)
This still makes me wonder why a government could or should not invest in it.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by croes on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @08:51AM (#34789197)
Why do people in the industry claim nothing would be invented without patents?

They don't know a world without such patents and they don't know the people and companies who would do research in such a world.

That's a claim like nobody would be a fire fighter if it wasn't a paid job. Guess how reality is really like.

What about all the underpaid people in healthcare? By that mindset those people wouldn't exits.

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by svc2Hokum on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @01:21PM (#34793601)
Figurative understanding and truth is mutable. Society put people on the moon when agency is put to it.

Why do people comment about the way society works when clearly agency is monopolized to focus on fiat wealth targets, not real work of value.

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by HDThoreaun on Monday February 13, 2023 @09:16PM (#34784298)
Easy enough to just federally fund a bounty based off qalys saved or something similar. The acts of innovating and manufacturing don't need to be linked.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by moremetadata on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @03:32AM (#34786885)
Software decompilers are the software industry's reverse engineering problem, so internet services are the solution, like those running from the cloud/data centres.

Of course patents also create monopolies and because no one wants to go backwards, monopolies never get challenged or challenged with little consequence so you can hold many country's and their population hostage quite legally.

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by ikekkdcjkfke on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @05:55AM (#34787730)
Thats and actual physical product produced and sold and bought. Why can't the patent system protect only these people?
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by nix23 on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @03:07AM (#34786744)
>especially when huge countries like China completely ignore them.

Excellent point, and it's the same with some proposed AI Laws.

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by brmgb on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @10:10AM (#34790367)
We need a way to encourage innovation and patents do work for that. The issue is not patent per see, the issue is the US patent office.

There is next to zero proper due diligence done for a patent to be awarded and there is no consequence to the office for issuing invalid patents. Just significantly raising examination fees, getting the patent office on the hook for issuance of invalid patents and fining companies filling for frivolous patents would solve most if not all of the current issues.

I leave investigating why it's not done as an exercise to the reader.

Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by yazzku on Monday February 13, 2023 @04:21PM (#34780730)
That campaign is an initiative from the FSF, by the way, though it's not surprising the EFF may also be promoting it.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by ntonozzi on Monday February 13, 2023 @05:14PM (#34781540)
Oops, good point! EFF also has some good articles about software patents: https://www.eff.org/issues/patents.
Re:Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' ... by yazzku on Monday February 13, 2023 @05:45PM (#34782020)
No problem. I point it out because I think the FSF often deserves more credit than it gets.