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Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by mcv on Thursday February 09, 2023 @04:45AM (#34721716)
Employers are the buyers of labour. If food prices depend on what the consumer can bear, then labour prices should depend on what the employer can bear. And most of them can bear a lot more than they're currently paying.
Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by sokoloff on Thursday February 09, 2023 @04:56AM (#34721790)
It is a market. Employers and consumers will pay what they have to be satiated. If they can’t afford that, they’ll have to make do with less. If something is priced too high and there are viable alternatives, they’ll consider those alternatives.
Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by mcv on Thursday February 09, 2023 @05:11AM (#34721885)
And so should employees, of course. We have options too.
Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by sokoloff on Thursday February 09, 2023 @05:22AM (#34721956)
Absolutely! Everyone is free to select among their options the one that they most prefer.
Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by interactivecode on Thursday February 09, 2023 @06:22AM (#34722376)
though you have to admit in basically all situations the employer has more leverage than a single employee.
Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by mcv on Thursday February 09, 2023 @06:36AM (#34722470)
That is the big fundamental problem of employer-employee relations. They hold more power and it's easier for them to organise with other employers without anyone being aware of it. The only way to balance that is for employees to also get organised. Or ban corporations, I suppose.
Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by kroltan on Thursday February 09, 2023 @08:53AM (#34723864)
I think you're onto something on that last thought.
Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by ajsnigrutin on Thursday February 09, 2023 @06:43AM (#34722517)
This depends on the worker... if we're talking about a job that 'anyone' can do, sure... worker is replaced within a week, and the worker might need more than a week to find a new job.

But a professional in a small team, usually witha bus factor of 1? This means a hard time finding a new employee + months of training, while the old worker probably found a new job before they even quit at the first one.

Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by SketchySeaBeast on Thursday February 09, 2023 @09:15AM (#34724169)
But if the current employee turned around and asked for double their wage their current employer would say no - they have leverage in that they can walk away and it would cause a lot of hardship for the company in the short term, but it's amazing how little the company is willing to part with to ensure that that employee stays.
Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by ajsnigrutin on Thursday February 09, 2023 @09:35AM (#34724504)
Some companies care, and people don't leave because of that. Some don't care, and people leave. Nobody writes a blogpost saying: "i got a raise so I didn't quit", because noone reads that... a blog post saying "company has huge profits, only offers small raise, so I quit and find a better job" is a whole different thing.
Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by toyg on Friday February 10, 2023 @03:07AM (#34736964)
> Nobody writes a blogpost saying: "i got a raise so I didn't quit"

There are plenty of blogposts from the other side, about "never give a raise to a flight-risk, because their loyalty is already shot". The business strategy is to quietly hire a (typically cheaper) replacement, then fire the uppity employee.

Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by logifail on Thursday February 09, 2023 @07:15AM (#34722826)
> though you have to admit in basically all situations the employer has more leverage than a single employee

This depends on how happy/able the employee is to leave to find an alternative.

A while ago I was at a trade fair in Germany and happened to see an advert from a jobs website, it read (roughly translated): "Hate your job ... ? It's your own fault!" (ie that you've not yet left the job you claim to hate...)

Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by ejb999 on Thursday February 09, 2023 @07:49AM (#34723175)
the employer has more leverage in who they choose to hire and what they choose to pay - but potential employees hold all the leverage about where they choose to work and the amount they are willing to accept.
Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by zajio1am on Thursday February 09, 2023 @06:31PM (#34733289)
I do not think so. Transaction costs for employee are small - several months of lost pay (before finding new employer), which would be mostly covered by severance pay or unemployment insurance anyway. Transaction costs for employer depends, they generally pay for lost productivity during training-in period and lost institutional knowledge in case of high-knowledge workers.
Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by toyg on Friday February 10, 2023 @03:11AM (#34736985)
> Transaction costs for employee are small

Must be nice being wealthy. Most people can barely go a single month without a paycheck.

> severance pay or unemployment insurance

Lol. In the UK, severance pay is one week per year of service, i.e. nothing. Unemployment insurance typically covers only specific costs, like mortgages, and can be significantly expensive.

And this is quite good compared to what happens almost anywhere outside of Europe.

> Transaction costs for employer depends

For any well-established business with significant redundancy, these costs are minimal. Only small companies suffer significantly when losing an employee.

Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by zajio1am on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:59AM (#34741383)
> Must be nice being wealthy. Most people can barely go a single month without a paycheck.

Not necessary wealthy. For people with median pay, it is more about financial responsibility. According to EU-SILC data more than half EU population has financial reserves for at lest three months.

> Lol. In the UK, severance pay is one week per year of service, i.e. nothing. Unemployment insurance typically covers only specific costs, like mortgages, and can be significantly expensive.

Here in Czechia it is 2 months notice period, then severance pay is 3 months (for > 2 years of employment), and then 5 months of government unemployment benefits on ~half pay. So 10 months to find a new job.

> For any well-established business with significant redundancy, these costs are minimal

Even in large businesses you can have small teams with domain experts, losing them can be costly.

Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by TheOtherHobbes on Thursday February 09, 2023 @06:27AM (#34722399)
"Market" is just another way of saying "Power differential."

Most corporate cultures are inherently authoritarian, with money being used as a proxy for power.

Empirically there is plenty of evidence that given a choice, many businesses would rather maintain the power differential and complain about "lack of applicants" than increase pay and suffer a corresponding diminution of authority.

Stock is an even more specific proxy for power, which is why stock options that have real value are usually reserved for those at the top of the hierarchy.

This is also why remote working is unpalatable. Even if it increases productivity it also enhances worker autonomy and reduces the power differential. That's not acceptable in an authoritarian culture.

Attitudes to remote work can be a useful indicator of how central hierarchy is in the culture.

Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by eru on Thursday February 09, 2023 @07:24AM (#34722927)
> Empirically there is plenty of evidence that given a choice, many businesses would rather maintain the power differential and complain about "lack of applicants" than increase pay and suffer a corresponding diminution of authority.

Why does any company every pay more than the legally required minimum, then?

Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by bryanrasmussen on Thursday February 09, 2023 @07:33AM (#34723006)
if you have 0 employees and nobody will work for you until you raise your pay to three times the legally required minimum, you raise because otherwise there is no power differential.

If you have 10 employees and you want to hire 3 more but to do that you have to increase their pay by 25% in relation to others then you might decide not to because this decreases power for everyone (should they find out what you're paying these others)

Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by prewett on Thursday February 09, 2023 @11:57AM (#34727016)
> "Market" is just another way of saying "Power differential."

Oh come on. This is a cynical or Marxist take, but it's pretty obviously untrue. A flea market, farmers market, FB marketplace doesn't have a substantial power imbalance. A market may have a power imbalance, but it is not required. People can exchange goods/services at equal power, and routinely do so. And if I understand economics correctly, that's the purpose of a "free" market: no artificial power imbalances.

Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by mcv on Thursday February 09, 2023 @01:14PM (#34728560)
This is an important point: according to Adam Smith, a free market is a market without power imbalances, a market on which everybody can trade as equals, with transparency. He was fully aware that companies would try to dominate the market, make it less free, form cartels, and generally conspire against the interests of consumers, workers and other smaller players on the market. He even suggested that workers may have to get organised in order to counter the power imbalance posed by corporations.

It's only later laissez-faire and neoliberal capitalists that turned "free market" synonymous with a lack of regulation and a playground for the biggest and most powerful companies.

Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by alexashka on Thursday February 09, 2023 @08:12PM (#34734290)
One man's cynical is another man's realistic.

Nobody credible disputes the validity of Marx's critiques of capitalism and 'free markets' by the way - they dispute his fantasy called communism.

Thus it can't simultaneously be a Marxist take and be obviously untrue. One of those has to give :)

I'd encourage anyone to read the first chapter of the Communist Manifesto [0] that summarizes his issues with capitalism. It'll take less than 30 minutes and is a great read, unlike the rest of his writings (in my opinion).

[0] https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/61/pg61-images.html

Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by ejb999 on Thursday February 09, 2023 @07:46AM (#34723148)
it is not about what they 'can' bear, it's about what they are willing to bear - it is not the same thing - the company can decide what they are willing to bear, and the employee can decide what they are willing to work for. Doesn't sound like a problem that needs fixing.
Re:Why is remote work seen as a gift? by anthonypasq on Thursday February 09, 2023 @11:05AM (#34726062)
thats because the person you're responding to is wrong. its simply finding an equilibrium price.