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Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by operatingthetan on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:14PM (#34714265)
>For people who are saying "thankfully HN is different!", it really isn't.

Yes it is. HN's moderation is run by HN. The rules are applied consistently because there are are no third party mods or rules. People know what to expect and that builds community better.

You don't have to wonder if some edgelord mod is going to get home from school and delete your post based on their mood.

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by jedberg on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:17PM (#34714319)
I think you missed my entire point then.

> HN's moderation is run by HN

No, it's run by a few humans.

> The rules are applied consistently

Yes, because those humans are awesome and consistent.

> because there are are no third party mods or rules.

That's not why reddit is different. It's because a lot of the humans that run the subreddits are inconsistent.

But some run their subreddits just like HN.

If you think of HN as a well run subreddit it makes more sense.

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by operatingthetan on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:27PM (#34714478)
>No, it's run by a few humans.

Dang is employed by HN.

>That's not why reddit is different. It's because a lot of the humans that run the subreddits are inconsistent.

You're disagreeing and then saying something that isn't appreciably different.

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by tptacek on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:30PM (#34714521)
Dan is HN. The analogy to a subreddit is good; Dan has in fact much more control over HN than a moderator does of a subreddit.
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by operatingthetan on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:33PM (#34714571)
YC has a vested interest in keeping the HN moderation a certain way, it bring a certain quality to the discourse but it's different than the structure of any sub.

Dang has a direct relationship with the owners of the site and responsibility to them, that relationship doesn't exist in any way on reddit. The mods run amok.

Suggesting HN is effectively just another subreddit dismisses several important differences.

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by tptacek on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:37PM (#34714659)
No, I don't think that's how HN works at all. Dan can in fact run amok on HN. I don't believe there are significant pressures from YC on how Dan structures moderation here.

People unfamiliar with the setup here tend to think about YC first when they think about its management, but they should think about Dan first. My understanding is that things are pretty hands-off; even the perks that YC companies get here are, I believe, pretty much things Dan decided to give them.

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by operatingthetan on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:43PM (#34714756)
>Dan can in fact run amok on HN. I don't believe there are significant pressures from YC on how Dan structures moderation here.

I'm sorry but this is absurd. If dang had a mental break and decided only cat picture posts were allowed going forward, there would definitely be a conversation. It being hands-off so far means that YC and dang have current consensus and trust exists.

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by tptacek on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:56PM (#34714976)
The trust between YC and Dan regarding HN is probably the whole story about moderation here. Again: people think YC exerts a bunch of influence in how HN is moderated, and I doubt it exerts much influence at all. Dan is running this place the way he'd run it if YC didn't exist.
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by operatingthetan on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @04:01PM (#34715074)
I'm not sure why you're belaboring the point because whether it's trust or a contractual agreement to run the site a certain way the result is the same. Either way works for my argument which was that the relationship is the difference from reddit's way. I don't care how the relationship is mediated.
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by tptacek on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @04:07PM (#34715178)
About the most interesting thing you can say about YC's "vested interest" is that they have a vested interest in having HN continue to be moderated at Dan's total discretion. That interest would change, obviously, if Dan was raptured. But discussing the possibility of Dan's rapturing is not interesting, curious, or productive: we're not talking about the failure modes of moderation when moderators are incapacitated, we're talking about moderatorial discretion.
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by operatingthetan on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @04:14PM (#34715273)
The point of community stability is that it contributes to both their reputation and YC investment class applicant pools.

>That interest would change, obviously, if Dan was raptured. But discussing the possibility of Dan's rapturing is not interesting, curious, or productive: we're not talking about the failure modes of moderation when moderators are incapacitated, we're talking about moderatorial discretion.

Wild monologue, I'm not sure it serves the conversation to express your tangents and then criticize them as if they were mine.

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by johnnyanmac on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @01:27AM (#34800726)
>we're not talking about the failure modes of moderation when moderators are incapacitated, we're talking about moderatorial discretion.

I saw the conversation as one about the structure of moderation. Paying a mod that you meet with every week to sync up with is very different from someone making some small sub themselves and enaccting any rules that don't break the sitewide rules. Likewise, a mod has no vested interest in the site nor its policies.

That mod-admin relationship is special on reddit, in a mostly bad way since admins ignore many mod issues. Dang is more like a moderator and an admin rolled into one.

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by searealist on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @11:11PM (#34719653)
Then explain why yummyfajitas was banned. Pressure from above.
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by tptacek on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @11:34PM (#34719783)
He was banned for trolling after being repeatedly warned to stop. I have no idea why you thought that was "pressure from above". But there are people who think any ban on HN is an insidious plot by YC, so it's not worth arguing.
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by searealist on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @11:37PM (#34719801)
yummyfajitas was 95 percentile for sincerity on this site. Calling him a troll is just easy.
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by tptacek on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @11:40PM (#34719814)
His whole comment history and the warnings he received are right there for everybody to read. But, no, I'm sure you're right: it's all an elaborate plot, because BayesianWitch threatened to upend the YC hegemony.
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by searealist on Thursday February 09, 2023 @12:02AM (#34719973)
He had no warnings for ages, then every comment was a warning. Obvious pressure from above for having an unpopular ideology.
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by altairprime on Thursday February 09, 2023 @11:45AM (#34726803)
Being courteous, thoughtful, and taking best-faith interpretations are key aspects of the ideology that is mandatory under this site’s guidelines. This is a wildly unpopular ideology at other sites.

If a user or mod noticed them breaking those guidelines over time, and they continued doing so after being repeatedly warned, then they absolutely would have been banned for their ideology.

Otherwise, I don’t think anyone really cares how disagreeable their viewpoint is, so long as they’re courteous and contributing while expressing it (and it’s not derogatory, hate speech, etc).

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by johnnyanmac on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @01:32AM (#34800754)
>This is a wildly unpopular ideology at other sites.

it's why I still end up browsing here even if I decide to delete multiple reddit accounts. People on reddit seem to have fallen into Poe's law of that Big Lewboski quote:

>"you're not wrong, Walter you're just an asshole!" >"Okay then"

Another forum gives some leeway for discarding courteousness if the post is truly dangerous to heed and absolutely needs to be smacked down as an example of what not to do. But reddit presses that button for every situation. pet being outside, car doing something that may be legal in their state but illegal in the commenter's state, one-sided relationship drama, video games. It's all just flooded with insults and in-fighting over inane stuff.

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by MockObject on Thursday February 09, 2023 @04:37PM (#34731896)
I'd never heard of him, so I looked up his history. His banning causes me to reconsider participation in this forum at all.
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by mistermann on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @06:41PM (#34717408)
> It being hands-off so far means that YC and dang have current consensus and trust exists.

But this is the very point of contention, and is not actually known.

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by lmm on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @07:39PM (#34718019)
The fact of being an HN employee means that Dan has a sword of Damocles above his head the whole time. Whether or not YC are actually calling him up day-to-day and telling him to do X or Y is irrelevant; he's smart enough to figure out what X and Y are and do them pre-emptively, and he knows his livelihood depends on it.
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by operatingthetan on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @08:10PM (#34718327)
Exactly, I'm so confused why people are speculating that dang is the only employee in the world not subject to a performance review. If someone is paying you, they have a stake in your work.
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by tptacek on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @10:09PM (#34719292)
No it doesn't. In fact, if I had to guess, the power dynamic probably goes the other way.
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by numpad0 on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:35PM (#34714619)
Dang might be well-intended kind dictator, but he’s no machine. He’s just a very thoughtful and kind person with human limits and capacities.
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by tough on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @04:56PM (#34715913)
DanGPT won't have those limitations
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by goatlover on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @05:05PM (#34716049)
What about when DanGPT hallucinates a violation?
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by TeMPOraL on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @06:12PM (#34716997)
Email [email protected] to report DanGPT is having a trip.
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by OrvalWintermute on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @05:33PM (#34716480)
Dang is a member of a specific community. Consequently, even if well intentioned, he is likely to share their cognitive biases and perspectives.

I think this is why we won't have great transparency around banning, shadowbanning, or a check on the censorious power of flagging.

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by NotPractical on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @05:43PM (#34716628)
I imagine that (thoughtfully) moderating a site as large as HN is no easy task, and though I'm all for more transparency, I think logs like that have the potential to open a whole can of worms and add much more burden on Dan. All of a sudden you get a bunch of HN posts that solely exist to criticize Dan's decisions which clog up the feed. If a rule is added against this it looks like even more censorship.

Lobsters [1] has mod logs, but it also has a much smaller community, and it's invite-only so there's less need for moderation in the first place.

[1] https://lobste.rs/moderations

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by ilyt on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @08:22PM (#34718427)
I don't think logs are needed in community moderated by single person, don't need logs to know who did what.

But for something like Reddit when there is more mods the anonymity basically means impunity to any judgement; nobody but mods themselves can say whether a certain bias in actions can be attributed to few mods or to everyone in the mod team.

And frankly if you can't handle a critique of your actions you shouldn't be moderating actions of others in the first place

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by ecf on Thursday February 09, 2023 @12:24AM (#34720096)
> No, it's run by a few humans.

And those humans work for HN. Hence, content moderation is run by HN.

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by Sebb767 on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:39PM (#34714683)
Most importantly: HN is moderated by payed moderators, which are hired and selected to do a good job here. They are still humans and fallible, obviously, but it's a far cry from "random dude that started a community in his free time".
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by riffic on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @05:05PM (#34716050)
paid

there's a great reddit bot that explains that "payed" is a sort of nautical term.

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by waboremo on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:23PM (#34714409)
You are still incorrectly comparing. The equivalent to HN in Reddit world is a single subreddit. When you compare a single subreddit to HN, you see there aren't many differences at all, a single set of rules being applied as the mods intend.
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by operatingthetan on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:39PM (#34714693)
>a single set of rules being applied as the mods intend.

Perhaps you haven't had as much moderator interaction as I have, but this is not the case whatsoever. Some subs will have 30 mods and each will apply the rules differently.

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by TeMPOraL on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @06:24PM (#34717167)
Well, then let's qualify HN as a mid-sized subreddit with a mostly well-behaved subscriber group and bunch of tricks (such as non-trendy UI) that reduce moderation load, making it possible for a single person to handle it.

Point being, comparing HN to Reddit is a category error; HN is in the same class as subreddits. This is less about HN and more about Reddit itself: Reddit is not a community, it's a network of communities on a common platform. Each subreddit is its own reality.

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by strken on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @07:33PM (#34717949)
It would be interesting if a subreddit actually paid its frontline moderation staff, and hired them via a board that didn't have mod responsibilities itself. I wonder if any of them have tried?
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by bartread on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @09:35PM (#34719063)
Sure, except that's not actually the case at all.

I don't know if dang is the only HN moderator, but even if he's not I've never seen any evidence of anyone in that role here just capriciously remove or lock discussions in a way that's absolutely commonplace on Reddit.

There are subs on Reddit that I simply no longer engage with because I'm sick of dimwit edgelord mods locking discussions whilst I'm typing out a contribution even though there's nothing wrong with either the original post or the discussion. There's no sense of consistency in the way the sub rules are applied in each of those subs.

A few weeks ago on the CasualUK subreddit one of the mods went off the deep end and started hurling insults left, right, and centre, and banning people simply for politely calling out their poor behaviour. That mod's conduct absolutely violated the rules of both the sub and Reddit as a whole. It's not OK and, again, it wouldn't happen here.

Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by favaq on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:32PM (#34714550)
That's not correct. Users can "moderate" by flagging comments, which hides them. dang rarely undoes a flag.
Re:Reddit Mods and Scaling Problems in Social Control by operatingthetan on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:37PM (#34714656)
Sure, but that further bolsters my point that HN is in fact different.