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Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by RobertDeNiro on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @09:05AM (#34692856)
Zygmunt Bauman was right on the mark, 25 years ago.

> Forms of modern life may differ in quite a few respects – but what unites them all is precisely their fragility, temporariness, vulnerability and inclination to constant change. To ‘be modern’ means to modernize – compulsively, obsessively; not so much just ‘to be’, let alone to keep its identity intact, but forever ‘becoming’, avoiding completion, staying underdefined. Each new structure which replaces the previous one as soon as it is declared old-fashioned and past its use-by date is only another momentary settlement – acknowledged as temporary and ‘until further notice’. Being always, at any stage and at all times, ‘post-something’ is also an undetachable feature of modernity. As time flows on, ‘modernity’ changes its forms in the manner of the legendary Proteus . . . What was some time ago dubbed (erroneously) 'post-modernity' and what I've chosen to call, more to the point, 'liquid modernity', is the growing conviction that change is the only permanence, and uncertainty the only certainty. A hundred years ago 'to be modern' meant to chase 'the final state of perfection' -- now it means an infinity of improvement, with no 'final state' in sight and none desired.

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by yanowitz on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @09:24AM (#34693119)
As were Marx and Engels, 175 years ago in the Communist Manifesto: “Constant revolutionizing of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real condition of life and his relations with his kind.”
Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by poszlem on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @09:39AM (#34693314)
Their diagnosis was okay, it's the proposed cure people have a problem with.
Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by cmrdporcupine on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @09:47AM (#34693433)
There's actually very little written by Marx or Engels on any kind of proposed "cure". Marx himself reacted very negatively to the idea of "writing recipes for cook-shops of the future." He didn't think it possible, nor desirable, to draw up plans.

The "cures" in the 20th century were on the whole written by people with far simpler minds and uglier motives. Their actions don't take away from the value of Marx as an analyst and critic of capitalism.

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by Karunamon on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @09:57AM (#34693587)
What little they did write in the Manifesto did plenty of damage all on its own, and it served as a step-by-step guide for most of history's failed communist states. (Particularly the bits of making "despotic inroads" on the existing systems)
Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by cmrdporcupine on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @10:24AM (#34693982)
I don't disagree, but I also think much has been lost in translation between 19th century phrases and language and conventions vs now. Context of the time was revolutions in the context of a mix of brutal 19th century monarchies/dictatorships, proto-capitalist/mostly agrarian economies, and brutal badly regulated industrial capitalisms.

The phrase "dictatorship of the proletariat" in particular has a very unfortunate history and ... interpretation.

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by poszlem on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @12:32PM (#34695861)
It is certainly a novel way to look at what Marx wrote.

I assume you are overlooking the little things like the abolition of private property, or central planning of the economy on purpose?

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by ch4s3 on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @09:43AM (#34693375)
This was written in the context of European society moving from a relatively settled period to one of rapid change. Had they been writing during the Wars of Religion they would have made similar observations about "uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation", and "All fixed, fast frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify".

You can point to a lot of periods in history where everything changes rapidly for at some points a couple of centuries before settling down again. It's hard to say if the modern period is unique or just another period of tumult between long stretches of calm. I'd caution against the notion that history is a science.

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by oblio on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @09:49AM (#34693465)
> It's hard to say if the modern period is unique or just another period of tumult between long stretches of calm.

Nobody can know the future, but some things are clear:

1. We are a lot more interconnected than in the past (every human civilization that wants to interact with others can do so... or was even forced do it, not very long ago).

2. We are a lot more self-aware than in the past, en masse.

3. We are a lot more structured in our large scale scientific approaches, and we have a lot more science centers working in parallel, widely distributed around the world.

Assuming peaceful conditions and no Venus-style global warming, things will stay hectic for the foreseeable future.

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by ch4s3 on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @10:15AM (#34693831)
I'm not sure how you would measure something like self-awareness.

I don't think interconnectedness presages rapid social change. We could just as easily settle into a sort of long quiet period where people are more or less accustomed to the way society is organized and institutions have been reformed to adapt to present day issues. After the industrialization of the 1early 9th century there was a fairly stable social arrangement until WWI swept everything off the map. It isn't impossible to imagine a situation where WWI didn't happen and the Belle Époque stretched for a long period of time.

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by oblio on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @10:34AM (#34694117)
> After the industrialization of the 1early 9th century there was a fairly stable social arrangement until WWI swept everything off the map.

That's one way to look at that period with rose tinted glasses :-)

There's a reason Marx & co wrote things during that time.

WW1 was just a more violent outburst of many frustrations, national, social, etc.

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by ch4s3 on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @10:38AM (#34694166)
I’m not looking at it with any judgment positive or negative. I’m just saying it is imaginable that the institutions of the period could have persisted had WWI not happened.
Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by ch4s3 on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @10:39AM (#34694178)
I’m not looking at it with any judgment positive or negative. I’m just saying it is imaginable that the institutions of the period could have persisted had WWI not happened.

Marx wasn’t writing during the late 19th century. The Revolutions of 1848 were the backdrop of their work.

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by antisthenes on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @12:47PM (#34696102)
> You can point to a lot of periods in history where everything changes rapidly for at some points a couple of centuries before settling down again. It's hard to say if the modern period is unique or just another period of tumult between long stretches of calm. I'd caution against the notion that history is a science.

Whether history is or isn't a science is completely orthogonal to how unique a period is.

The modern period is unique due to the amount of resources being exploited per capita being unprecedented compared to any other time in human history. Although in the future it's possible that that number will trend down, for the time being our current prosperity is only enabled by copious amounts of energy spent on modern conveniences, particularly infrastructure, appliances and utilities.

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by ch4s3 on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @11:11AM (#34710098)
The ability to turn raw materials into resources and to generate energy is certainly unique so far, but it may turn out to be basically the norm going forward.
Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by cmrdporcupine on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @09:43AM (#34693382)
I think about this quote -- especially the "melts into air" part -- often.

I do feel like Marx "slips up" a bit there with the "senses his real conditions of life"; this feels like "Younger Marx" of Manifesto/German-Ideology era and not older, mature, cynical Marx of "Grundrisse" and "Capital". I think the latter recognized that at no point are the "real conditions" visible or confronted, and that all is 'obscured' by ideology and the pursuit of market domination and exploitation.

The words of "Younger Marx" there were easily twisted and exploited by people with awful motives and means and brutal simple minds. Later Marx ... they didn't understand.

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by oblio on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @09:44AM (#34693395)
Were they, though?

If we need progress, and we do, because nobody wants to die (of disease, old age, whatever) and everyone wants a good life (not one doing backbreaking work or even doing dishes), then that means trying to progress is an inevitable aspect of being human, not a an aspect of the "bourgeois epoch".

It's not the bourgeoisie doing stuff, it's just us, humans.

So if we are progressing and we build upon progress, then progress accelerates, it's only natural, since we have more stuff to build on top of.

That's what's actually melting social conventions and perceived stability.

And I don't think anyone has a solution to this problem, yet.

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by cmrdporcupine on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @11:23AM (#34694763)
"It's not the bourgeoisie doing stuff, it's just us, humans."

I think this is misunderstanding what Marx was trying to say here. Marx saw the bourgeoisie (fancy word for "owners", that's all) as a product of forces, not a cause.

The cause is the specific form of economic management / ownership in the current era -- capitalism. The structure of private property, or ownership of production by private entities; which unleashes the profit motive. Which rewrites and restructures everything in its path.

Yes it's humans doing it. But they're doing it in the context of filling their stomachs. The point is that the way that they filled their stomachs changed. With consequences, good and bad.

Disagree strongly with this phrase "we are progressing"; this is value laden, and hand waving. There is definitely a motive force driving things -- profit extraction -- but the word "progress" implies inevitability and a singular direction as well as a positive aspect. I think we can be more scientific than that.

And yes, agreed, nobody has a solution. But I think Marx is among many who have a line of useful analysis about what this is.

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @09:24AM (#34693122)
I will add to this. In every corporate environment I was a part of, 'the only constant is change' was a common refrain.
Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by jmathai on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @09:49AM (#34693460)
This may sound silly and be off topic but I believe this is what got me to peruse a career outside of programming.

This accurately describes modern life and, I think by extension, modern software development.

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by epups on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @10:49AM (#34694302)
May I ask why? It seems to me that, facing a fast-changing world as described in the article, you would be best served perfecting a skill such as programming to navigate it.
Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by jlarocco on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @10:57AM (#34694395)
I can't speak for the OP, but I've felt this way too, and for me it's because I feel that while most industries are changing for the better, software development seems unusually short sited in chasing new stuff. Most industries are improving as they change, where software (from my perspective) is regressing or just pointlessly churning.

The concepts and abstract skill of programming is undoubtedly useful, but the implementation details and how it's done are going to be replaced by something worse in 3 years.

I think it bothers me because I'm attached to it, and it's disappointing to see it move in directions I don't like or that feel wrong to me. It's all "market forces" and "public opinion" and nobody controls it, but it would be less depressing in an industry I didn't care about.

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by jmathai on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @11:35AM (#34694938)
That’s correct. I’ve been programming for 25 years (until I changed careers, still in tech).

Software in web development, at least, has a quickly shrinking shelf life and the value it creates (besides intellectual stimulation for developers) seems very very small.

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by packetlost on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @12:16PM (#34695592)
I whole-heartedly disagree that software engineering is getting worse. The languages, ecosystems, security, processes, etc. are pretty much all far better than they were 10 years ago. You really just have to ignore the loud individuals in the "web3" and JavaScript (JS has largely calmed down lately though) spaces.
Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by jlarocco on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @11:02PM (#34703975)
I'm curious if you'd share examples. I think I'd sum up the last 10 years as the web and mobile ecosystems doing a mediocre job trying to catch up to where native apps were 20 years ago.

My overall development experience writing C++ 10 years ago was actually better than writing C# and Typescript now. The more interactive environments like Jupyter notebooks and browser dev tools are nice, but they're still not as featureful or as interactive as a good Lisp environment.

For consumer software we're nearly in the same place we were 25 years ago, except we took a round trip through the web, and now we're back to downloading native apps, which are more "secure" in some sense, but are funneling private data off to strangers, making it overall worse. And our hardware is 100x more powerful but our software is 1000x more bloated to make up for it. And the business model of consumer software now is to treat the user like an idiot and monetize them as much as possible.

Business software has some bright spots, like IAAS, SAAS, etc. but they're kinda just regurgitating ideas from the 60s, 70s and 80s.

Security is a funny one because it's technically better, but overall worse because software that wouldn't be connected in the past now "has to" go online, opening it up to attack.

There is a lot of good, like the open source world, and Linux and FreeBSD gaining popularity, but even those have dark sides, like corporations exploiting them as a source of cheap or free labor.

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by dopeboy on Monday February 13, 2023 @03:05PM (#34779537)
I think there are aspects of it that are getting worse.

Is React better than using vanilla JS? Yes. I like not storing state in the DOM.

Is it worth the layers of abstraction, both mental and infrastructural? This is a difficult question to answer.

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by hypomanic on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @02:35PM (#34698086)
Did you end up changing careers?
Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by jmathai on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @03:28PM (#34699013)
Yes. But not too far away. I went into product management.
Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by nradov on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @09:58AM (#34693610)
Such statements are profoundly ahistorical. Pre-modern life was far more fragile, temporary, vulnerable than anything which people in developed countries experience today. Life for most people involved constant risk of violence, starvation, and disease.
Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by lolinder on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @10:28AM (#34694026)
The statement doesn't make any claims about what pre-modern life was like, it only describes what it means to be modern and how that word changed over a hundred-year period.
Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by thewarrior on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @10:15AM (#34693849)
Yeah but I didn't have to learn how Spear.JS worked in the new monthly update in order to go catch food. The skills I needed and my relationships did not change as often.
Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by enraged_camel on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @10:18AM (#34693899)
Food is actually a profoundly bad example to make your point, because food security before modern times was non-existent pretty much everywhere, even if you had the necessary skills to grow or catch it. :)
Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by thewarrior on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @10:38AM (#34694159)
The supply of food was unstable but the means to find it was not changing all the time. Once you built up a certain foraging / hunting skill the skillset is done. You don't have to relearn it 10 times.
Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by enraged_camel on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @10:17AM (#34693878)
While that is true to a certain extent, what is also true is that the overall rate of change for pretty much everything was much, much slower before modern times. If your situation was relatively stable, that slow pace of change could mean a certain amount of safety and security in certain contexts.
Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by nradov on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @12:42PM (#34696030)
Nonsense. Pre-modern life was anything but stable, safe, or secure. People were subject to invasions, pestilence, bad weather, plagues, accidents, the list goes on. Anyone who believes that the rate of change was slower in pre-modern times is simply ignorant of history and archaeology. There are many types of change beyond just technological change.
Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by blippage on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @01:14PM (#34696602)
It's interesting to contrast this with Japan. Japan has some of the longest-lived companies [1]. Construction, hotels, sake and confectionery feature prominently. Meanwhile, the average company lifespan on the S&P500 went down from 32 years in 1965 to 20 years last year. [2]

I suspect that the difference has a lot to do with culture. The Japanese companies with a long life are probably smaller, family-run, and don't go aggressively for growth. When your company has been going for over 200 years, I imagine one feels a sense of "don't fuck it up." Compare that to the US, where it's always ever onwards and upwards, always going for growth.

The Japanese have some ideas which seem bizarre to the West. Like, companies in those positions might "adopt a son". Typically they're 25-30 year-old men who take on the name of their adopted families. They then run the business (although presumably not straight away). Seems weird, but look at the results.

These small Japanese businesses seem more in-tune with their regular employees, too, treating them like an extended family, to some extent. There's no hire and fire mentality that we've been seeing lately; with the likes of Microsoft scooping up a big workforce only to turn around a couple of years later and reverse it. It's a shitty way to treat people.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_companies [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1259275/average-company-...

Re:After Callous Layoffs, Workers Are Done with the Full-Tim... by orthoxerox on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @02:29AM (#34705217)
> The Japanese have some ideas which seem bizarre to the West. Like, companies in those positions might "adopt a son". Typically they're 25-30 year-old men who take on the name of their adopted families. They then run the business (although presumably not straight away). Seems weird, but look at the results.

Family-run companies don't have an agent-principal problem companies with a dedicated corporate management layer have, but they have a problem of inheritance: when the old owner+manager dies, the new one must be one of his children, but this is a very limited pool of potential successors. What if your sons are all rakes and louts?

Someone who loves working for your business and shows a lot of potential is a much better heir if he's willing to become your son-in-law. The whole "adopt a son" thing is just a bit of legal fiction the preserve the family name.