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Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by karaterobot on Monday February 06, 2023 @06:38PM (#34686218)
These are good rules of thumb. As a professional designer for coming up on 2 decades, I'd say they are indeed safe to follow in most situations.

He gives the good advice that you should only follow the rules when they make sense, and not otherwise. With that in mind, the two rules I disagree with the most are:

> Measurements should be mathematically related

> Elements should go in order of visual weight

Because, whereas most of the other rules are probably good to follow 90% of the time, these feel sort of arbitrary and opinionated.

I think making measurements mathematically related is a convenience and is often helpful, but for the same reason that optically centering things is better than mathematically centering them, I think you can easily ignore a mathematical relationship between values if it doesn't look as good. There is nothing inherent about humans that makes us prefer magic numbers, it's just that using them gives us an easy way to achieve visual consistency. If it stops doing that, ignore the ratio. If a grid or your font sizes look better nudged by a pixel or two in one direction or the other, do that instead.

With respect to ordering elements by visual weight, my only complaint is that he specifically says "heavier first", rather than "heavier first, or heavier last, both are fine as long as you're consistent". So, it's a nitpick, but it bothered me because it's an easy distinction to make.

Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by IgorPartola on Monday February 06, 2023 @07:37PM (#34686801)
I would also say the ordering rule is just plain wrong. In a modal or a wizard I can easily see doing something like this as a good option:

    [Back]     nevermind      [NEXT]
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by motoxpro on Monday February 06, 2023 @11:20PM (#34688724)
That example is a nightmare.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by wlonkly on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @07:28PM (#34702129)
That specific example is spatial, though. Assuming left to right writing, "next" is on the "forward" side, and "back" on the "back" side.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by blululu on Monday February 06, 2023 @08:28PM (#34687276)
At the end of the day I feel like you are correct in practice but the advice to follow mathematical relationships is still solid. Yes you are probably going to need to deviate from the mathematical relationship at some points, but these are generally helpful to observe and understand the design challenge. For one thing have a mathematical basis acts as a good starting point. This is helpful for more junior designers, it is good when the assets that are in flux and it is generally useful for getting things close before tuning. Second, having some mathematical conception of the layout can help provide deeper insights into the problems. You can start to formulate things in more regular terms and you can start thinking beyond a layout configuration and consider how the problems generalize. Ultimately people have different methods and you should do what works for you, but I think that this point is still good advice in general.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by Jenk on Monday February 06, 2023 @08:41PM (#34687404)
I (not a designer) figure it's like the "rules" of photography such as the "rule of 3rds".

For those unfamiliar, the rule is that the main focal point (the bit you want to draw the observer into the picture first - such as the eye of a the person in a portrait) of the picture should be at the intersection of one third from the edges of the picture.

Another "rule" is the "sacred geometry" where elements that have long edges are more appealing when they are in alignment either with other "lines" in the image, or with the edges of the image itself. I've taken many landscape photos with a camera leveled with a gyroscope stabiliser (or just a spirit level when on a tripod) but the resulting images didn't "pop" until they were rotated so the ground aligned with the frame, or the picture skewed so the walls of buildings were truly vertical.

But then I've seen some incredible photographs that break those rules and only work because they deliberately broke the rules - some quickly found examples (and article affirming my diatribe above :)) from natgeo: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/photography/article/break...

Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by deafpolygon on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @02:06AM (#34689663)
IMO, that photo doesn't break the rules. The image is still somewhat segmented into thirds. Maybe transcending the rule.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by laurieg on Monday February 06, 2023 @10:23PM (#34688331)
As a software engineer I like these simple rules, they let me produce something that doesn't look terrible without having to spend years studying design.

It reminds me of shuhari (守破離), an idea from martial arts and other traditional practices. It basically means "Follow the rules, break the rules, transcend the rules", and the characters mean "follow, break, transcend". The article hints at this too: follow the rules until you find a good reason not to. As it is aimed at beginners we should mostly be learning and following the rules until we have enough experience to start breaking them.

Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by mock-possum on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @12:22AM (#34689075)
> shuhari ... basically means "Follow the rules, break the rules, transcend the rules"

I really like how that lines up against one of my favorite maxims, "First do it, then do it right, then do it better."

Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by chrstphrknwtn on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @12:29AM (#34689108)
Make it work, make it right, make it fast.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by arkad on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @05:26AM (#34690974)
Improvise, adapt, overcome.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by codegladiator on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @05:59AM (#34691202)
Embrace, extend, and extinguish
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by danuker on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @06:36AM (#34691411)
Veni, vidi, vici
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by airstrike on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @07:14AM (#34691728)
Shit, shower, shave
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by lowercased on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @08:50AM (#34692669)
Jump, jive and wail?
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by heeton on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @10:34AM (#34694118)
VVVVVV
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by matwood on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @06:50AM (#34691532)
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by mcdonje on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @09:19AM (#34693051)
Slow is fast.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by Narishma on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @12:17PM (#34695609)
That's nice in theory. What happens in the real world is more like 'make it work, ship it'. Sometimes the first part is optional.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by GoblinSlayer on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @09:34AM (#34708525)
Ship as you make.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by WA on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @01:34AM (#34689488)
That is geared towards coming up with new rules I presume.

Think about it: creating software is creating new rules. You gotta start somewhere and refine the system.

But if you learn an existing rule system, you need to follow it first, then break them, then transcend/improve them.

Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by flir on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @03:02AM (#34690019)
I see The Analytical Language of John Wilkins was posted again today. While you're creating those rules, it's important to remember the map is not the territory.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by FieryTransition on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @10:15AM (#34693837)
I liked maxims when my life was simple and I was young, now they feel completely meaningless, as they never have a context for real life and they break down easily when applied to complex behavior and interactions. It's more like a prayer or chant, more for self reassurance, that you follow some principle, than anything.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by hamasho on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @01:03PM (#34696397)
Probably it's not against shuhari. Shihari is often used to describe professional principles in martial arts or playing instruments. It assumes they're trained to the point where if they do it, they unconsciously follow all the rules. When they play guitar, their fingers just move in the most effective ways and play the most satisfying melody. Then they intentionally break a few rules to improve it.

So shuhari is ”first do it, then do it right, then do it better” for professionals.

Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by deltarholamda on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @07:14PM (#34701986)
The designer mantra as I learned it was “Get it done. Make it beautiful.“

Designers will futz with kerning or whatever for hours.

Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by thaumasiotes on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @05:25AM (#34690970)
> and the characters mean "follow, break, transcend"

守 does mean "follow" in the specific sense of "following rules", though it has no sense related to motion and most "following", including metaphorical following, would be represented by 隨. 守 mostly means "guard" or "protect", and I assume that's the metaphor that was extended to complying with rules and correctly performing rituals.

破 means "break", no problem there.

離 means "leave" as in "go away"; it does not appear to have any sense of "transcend".

Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by hnbad on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @06:03AM (#34691224)
Presumably that would also be "leave" as in "abandon"? I think the idea is that you no longer need to think of the rules at that point because your intuition has matured to a point that you no longer have to reference them at all.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by thaumasiotes on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @06:58AM (#34691589)
> Presumably that would also be "leave" as in "abandon"?

Well, sure, in the sense that abandoning necessarily involves leaving, and 離 can refer to the leaving aspect of that. But "abandon" adds a lot of meaning that isn't generally present in "leave"; you might be looking for 棄, which is specifically about abandoning.

離 is a much more basic word having to do with distance and separation. But since separation and abandonment are closely related, it does appear to have been used in something resembling that sense. Consulting a dictionary of Middle Chinese:

> 離

> 1. to part from, separate, leave; e.g. 離緒 emotions at parting; 離居 leave one's home; also, live apart

> b) stray from, astray; estrange(ment); divorce oneself from; be or get free of; e.g. 離落 aimlessly astray, drifting rootlessly; 離書 bill of divorce; 離結 free from bonds

That gloss is the closest one I see to "abandon". (And also looks like a pretty good match to the usage above; you can imagine escaping the binding of the rules as a close analogue of escaping literal bindings.) Compare

> 棄

> 1. throw away, discard; put aside, leave behind; abandon, forsake; renounce, reject, abolish, get rid of; annul

(Why Middle Chinese? It's easier for me to look up, and it seems more likely to be reflected in Japanese than modern Chinese usage is.)

Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by bloopernova on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @08:27AM (#34692422)
This is a fascinating comment that I enjoyed reading. I appreciate you, internet stranger.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by Throw10987 on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @05:31AM (#34691016)
I have to add “If you know the way broadly you will see it in all things” from Musashi which conveys a similar sentiment.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by matwood on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @06:51AM (#34691542)
So many good lessons from Musashi. Highly recommended read.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by hnbad on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @06:00AM (#34691203)
This is actually very close to the advice I've heard when it comes to design, i.e. "you need to understand the rules in order to understand when to break them". Following the rules helps build an intuition that later allows you to judge when breaking them is advisable.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by alex_suzuki on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @07:01AM (#34691610)
Nice. And very applicable to software engineering.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by windows2020 on Monday February 06, 2023 @11:17PM (#34688693)
Anyone have information on the mathematics behind optical alignment?
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by meheleventyone on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @02:10AM (#34689685)
I was thinking about this and to me it seems like it’s closer to the centre of mass. It doesn’t really help that that the article doesn’t describe how they centre the thing in the ‘mathematical’ version. For example is it the mid-point of the extents. I think even using the average horizontal position of the vertices would be closer to ‘optical centre’ and even more so if you took area into account by breaking the shape into triangles.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by hennell on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @06:51AM (#34691539)
The ‘mathematical’ alignment is usually just considered "centered however the alignment button works in the software you're using" in design discussion. For most software that'd be bounding box based - the center of the rectangle the software draws around it.

Optically is more center of mass, but ideal more 'center of visual weight'. Larger things are 'heavier', darker/more contrasty things are 'heavier'. Rounded things should extend over an alignment line a bit, flat shapes butt up against it (e.g. in the letters lO the O extends over the baseline slightly compared to the l, to visually connect with the baseline more).

In general the way it works is you align with whatever software says and you look at it and say does it actually look aligned or need minor adjustment? Because the point is to look aligned rather than to be mathematically correctly aligned. Like our letters above, they look more visually on the same baseline when they're not, then when all the rounded base letters sit most 'correctly' on the line.

Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by rrrrrrrrrrrryan on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @10:38AM (#34694167)
It's just mean instead of mode.

The author is suggesting you use the mean X value of all the pixels in the shape, instead of the mode x value.

I'm sure fancier image editing software does this, but your eyes are pretty good at it too because it's just dividing the surface area in half, or thinking about it as the "center of mass" as you put it: where could you attach a string to this shape such that it doesn't tip over one way or another?

Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by thiht on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @03:53AM (#34690358)
Feels like the vertical line goes through the barycenter of the shape
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by Daub on Monday February 06, 2023 @11:56PM (#34688943)
> Elements should go in order of visual weight

I think that this might be more true in screen based work than in printed publications. The focus of a printed page tends towards the top, but not necessarily at the top. A webpage is a different entity… not always seen in its entirety. The way that unity manifests would therefore necessarily be different. The order of weight would be better maintained at a local level, not global.

> Make outer padding the same or more than inner padding

This is one that is generally true, but not always. A framed drawing can often safely accommodate more space at the bottom than the sides and top.

Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by somat on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @12:00AM (#34688964)
If you can measure and quantify your choice, it's math. I think it is more like "don't make decisions with your gut, understand why something looks better."
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by IIAOPSW on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @12:57AM (#34689263)
I disagree with your disagreement. The brain has a strong preference for simple patterns. The more it can compress information down into assumed symmetries and extrapolations, the more "pleasing" it feels. There's always a mathematical explanation, even if you're not consciously aware of it. In the "optically aligned" example, the 2nd object is aligned about its center of mass rather than its height/width pixel border.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by atoav on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @01:50AM (#34689580)
There can always be an mathematical explaination sure. But that won't help you as a designer if there is no way to know/apply that explaination beforehand. There is probably also a (quite complex) mathematical rule to drive your car on a public road, so it should be simple to implement automatic driving, right?

Optical weight is nice and all (and a better simple rule than just spacing things by equal distance), but in the end you also have other phenomena (humans perceive horizontal lines different than vertical ones etc.)

Just the seemingly simple task of spacing out letters can get complicated pretty fast if it should look pleasing as in "as if there was no design there".

Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by notahacker on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @04:25AM (#34690562)
It's also the case that some of the simplest and most intuitive possible mathematical rules are going to look less good than some less mathematically elegant ratio, like picking line spacing for body text which is exactly the font-size or exactly twice the font-size rather than somewhere between 1.2x - 1.5x
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by deafpolygon on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @01:41AM (#34689533)
> > Measurements should be mathematically related

> I think making measurements mathematically related is a convenience and is often helpful

I think, in the absence of any guiding principles or rules, this is a good one to have. It's easier to say "Ok, this should be 4, 12, 36" then go from there.

I think heavier first is just because so many people make the same mistakes. Clearly, if you have experience, you can break the rules anytime you want and even make up your own.

Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by krsdcbl on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @05:44AM (#34691096)
As somebody with a similar job profile & experience I totally agree with you, but do think the point of keeping mathematical relations between sets of measurements is a very good tip indeed:

not because not doing so would result in bad design decisions, but because it makes it much much easier for people unfamiliar with design work to:

- keep things consistent - stay within a balanced set of measurements that are easy to remember and expand - avoid ending up with a set of values that are too close to each other to meaningfully impact the design, but are therefore hard to maintain and identify

Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by neovive on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @08:40AM (#34692572)
I agree! Good design is hard and these basic rules make sense for most designs. It's better to stick to them unless you are certain about your reasons otherwise. These days, I tend to use a utility library like Tailwind, to take some of the guesswork out of color matching, spacing, and sizing.
Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by thanatropism on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @09:58AM (#34693598)
Logarithmically related is mathematically related.

Heck, related by Wiener noise/integrated random walk is mathematically related, and if you watch 2D animations of random walks you'll soon develop a visual feeling for that.

Re:Visual design rules you can safely follow every time by kqr on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @11:10AM (#34694576)
I agree with you about the mathematical relations. I used to do it when I was younger, but it never quite worked out so I stopped.

However, there is sort of a reason to do it: baseline alignment. If you have columns with different contents, the heights of everything should work out so that the baselines continue to align over the page. You can adjust this manually, but a mathematical relation can be a shortcut there.