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Re:Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC... by naasking on Monday February 06, 2023 @12:54PM (#34681306)
> It wouldn't necessarily be explicit, but there were lots of offhand comments and jokes. That's how racism (and sexism, homophobia, ...) tends to present itself; it's a lot more subtle than people straight up going "I hate ${group}".

Don't conflate those jokes and offhand comments with hate. You're erasing all sorts of meaningful differences between basically harmless husbands joking about their wives or differences between men and women, and Andrew Tate.

It's also a poor tactic to effect change. If you immediately group basically harmless in-group type behaviours like these with actual devastating harm, you make yourself and your objections look silly causing people to dismiss you, and it's far harder to change behaviour after calling someone a hateful bigot, than it is to ask they tone it down because a joke made someone a little uncomfortable. I think you can easily imagine the difference in defensiveness each response might elicit.

Re:Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC... by dpkirchner on Monday February 06, 2023 @01:34PM (#34681925)
Have you asked gamers to "tone it down"? I have, a few times, and it doesn't work at all -- the good ol' boys just double down. If they're not racist they at least want you to think they're racist, and they're definitely excluding minorities whether or not they feel it in their hearts.
Re:Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC... by tremon on Monday February 06, 2023 @01:43PM (#34682062)
Similarly, don't assume that all racism is expressed as hate. You're erasing all sorts of meaningful difficulties experienced by minorities if you assume that only overtly hateful comments can be disparaging.
Re:Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC... by naasking on Monday February 06, 2023 @02:41PM (#34683078)
> Similarly, don't assume that all racism is expressed as hate.

Who really claims that though? Saying "black people are always late" is racist because it's a racial prejudice, but that's not an expression of hatred towards black people.

Re:Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC... by account42 on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @10:17AM (#34693876)
Sure, some racism is expressed as DEI initiatives.
Re:Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC... by sn9 on Monday February 06, 2023 @06:16PM (#34685963)
The problem is that if you don't personally know the views of the people involved, racist jokes are often indistinguishable from hate.

Outside of a context where the humor is understood by all like a stand-up comedy act, you aren't entitled to how other people perceive your behavior.

If you walk like a racist and talk like a racist, people are just gonna assume you're a racist.

If that's a problem for you, there's a really fucking simple solution.

Re:Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC... by naasking on Monday February 06, 2023 @06:48PM (#34686324)
The point is you don't know how this person walks or talks, you only see a fragment of a conversation typically taken out of context. I hope you see the problem here, to say nothing of the problem with assuming someone is intrinsically evil unless they toe your specific line.

Furthermore I'm entitled to argue for what I think are good practices for communicating online, just like everyone else.

Re:Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC... by MrMan on Monday February 06, 2023 @09:30PM (#34687854)
words are actions in a forum where you cant see anything about a person but their words
Re:Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC... by account42 on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @10:26AM (#34694003)
If people making jokes is a problem for you, there is a really fucking simple solution: don't get offended. You aren't entitled to people going out of their way to accomodate you. If you don't know if someone is doing something out of hate, assume they are not.
Re:Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC... by kfajdsl on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @05:45PM (#34716658)
> If you immediately group basically harmless in-group type behaviours like these with actual devastating harm, you make yourself and your objections look silly causing people to dismiss you, and it's far harder to change behaviour after calling someone a hateful bigot, than it is to ask they tone it down because a joke made someone a little uncomfortable.

Sure, some of those things can be harmless. I agree that when calling out bad behavior you shouldn't necessarily go all the way to 100 (ofc depending on severity). The main way to gauge malice is people's reactions to a reasonable request to tone it down. Apologizing and not repeating it? Cool, that's how basically any friend group figures out where the line is drawn. Doubling down and basically saying "grow a pair"? Not ok.

There's also a difference between something like "hah, guess they were on IST" vs "typical street shitter" (using my own ethnicity as an example).