Tesla's FSD would be better compared to Star Citizen then to a paint job.

If you pay $10K for a paint color, you get the paint color. If you pay $20K for sport brakes, you get the brakes. If you pay $15k for Tesla FSD, you get the hope that Tesla will eventually deliver FSD, much the same as a Star Citizen customer is buying the hope that they'll eventually actually be able to fly their ship in a full game.

You can still argue that the aspiration is worth the money to the customers, or that they're already getting enough value out of the partially delivered product. But I also think it's reasonable for onlookers to think that there's some level of fraud going on, given the constant promises without delivery.

If you pay $15K today, you get FSD Beta. For some people, the beta is worth the price, even not knowing precisely when it will be more than SAE Level 2.

We are talking about the group of people who system16 criticized for being "happy with having paid for FSD." Other peoples' needs and wants differ, and characterizing those needs and wants as if they are plain wrong is arrogant.

What's the beta used for? If you need to keep your hands on the steering wheel and monitor the FSH I feel it's more of a testing task (which should be performed by qualified personnel) rather than end users on public streets. If the beta software kills someone you are responsible because you didn't stop it on time. Is this something people want?

It is semi-autonomous driving software, so the use cases are what you might expect. For example, I have seen many Youtube videos where people are using it for supervised semi-autonomous drives. Some say that once you're used to its quirks, it's less stressful/easier to drive this way.

In the end, who knows? Who cares? If a customer says they are happy with the purchase, why should someone else tell them they are plain wrong? I can disagree, of course, but I should not tell them they're just wrong for being happy.

I don't tell people they're wrong for paying extra for a special paint color.

<< In the end, who knows? Who cares? If a customer says they are happy with the purchase,

I do care in some instances.

If an individual chooses to part with their money, it is 9/10 none of my business. However, in this case, parting of the money involves a seller providing a product that does not live to its advertising claims. As such, other entities can ( and will ) take note of this sudden change in customer's attitudes towards blatant lies. Note how much damage Tesla did to cars with cars as subscription. Other manufacturers were quick to pick up on this.

When I buy a car, I want some level of assurance that it is not just 'beta', 'alpha', but a fully working product. I don't accept this software mentality 'we will ship it in next update' in cars. So in this case, stupid customer moves affect me. So I can do two things. It seems easier to enforce current regulations on Tesla and quietly calm down defensive Tesla buyers, who will defend FSD with their lives if they have to.

>> Some say that once you're used to its quirks, it's less stressful/easier to drive this way.

That's really my problem. You get used with it and start trusting it until it unexpectedly goes straight into that white van.

> should be performed by qualified personnel

The trouble is, nobody can afford to employ a hundred thousand professional test drivers.

I covered that already in my comment:

> You can still argue that ... they're already getting enough value out of the partially delivered product.

I think it's true that some people feel that way, and that's fine. But I agree with OP that the Tesla others "who honestly believe 'real FSD is only a year away'" are being taken advantage of if not outright defrauded.

> Also, characterizing the current FSD Beta system as "cruise control" is delusional.

Agreed, most cruise control systems are considerably better. My cruise control has never tried to swerve me into oncoming traffic.

A system that doesn't have the capability to make turns at all will not make an error when making a turn.

By the same token, walking will avoid the risk of being in a highway accident. So by this logic, walking is superior to driving.

What if you're walking on the highway though? Would that not be considered a highway accident?

> A system that doesn't have the capability to make turns at all will not make an error when making a turn.

Yes, a system that doesn't try to do something is better than one that does it poorly.

> By the same token, walking will avoid the risk of being in a highway accident. So by this logic, walking is superior to driving.

Again we're on the same page, walking is superior to driving. Although the pesky cars often make it more dangerous and there are limits that make walking impractical at times.

If I pay 20 thousand for pink and I get pink there’s no further argument.

Yeah, and if you pay $15K today, you get FSD Beta. For some people, that is worth the price.

Again, arguing that you know better about what other people do with their money is arrogant.

Not being a Tesla owner and definitely not someone paying $15k for FSD Beta, I have to ask, when someone does pay $15k for FSD are they told it is FSD or that it is FSD Beta?

You can see for yourself: https://www.tesla.com/model3/design

    Full Self-Driving Capability
    
    $15,000
    
    All functionality of Basic Autopilot and Enhanced Autopilot
    Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control

    Coming Soon

    Autosteer on city streets

    The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.

loads page...

cmd-f "beta"

0 results

hmmm...some further questioning is warranted.

So, for the people actually buying it with the actual contract paperwork and the sales pitch being provided, does the word Beta ever get used and is it fully explained?

to me, it looks like another "smear the DoJ for doing their job" campaign by those having the job done to them. it is so in vogue these days

I am noticing the complete lack of the word "beta".

Interesting to compare this to the same page from 2019: https://web.archive.org/web/20190407072718/https://www.tesla...

Full Self-Driving Capability

Navigate on Autopilot: automatic driving from highway on-ramp to off-ramp including interchanges and overtaking slower cars.

Autopark: both parallel and perpendicular spaces.

Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really.

Coming later this year:

Recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs.

Automatic driving on city streets.

Apparently the Justice Department disagrees...

This subthread is about the people who system16 criticized for being happy with purchasing FSD. The Justice Department is not acting on behalf of that group of satisfied customers.

Your claim seems to be that people get to decide what they spend their money on, and it's arrogant to think you know better than them. Which is a fine claim, to a point, but the Justice Dept seems willing to at least investigate whether they should step in and declare that what's being sold here is essentially fraud. You might call that arrogant, but it doesn't really matter, it's still what's happening.

They are investigating, so it is not known whether or not they disagree yet. And even if they did, your argument would still be nothing but an appeal to authority.

My argument is more about power: you're free to claim that it's arrogant to think you know better than the people spending the money, and if they're happy, then it's none of your business. But the government doesn't agree, so good luck with that.

> People will pay $20K for sport brakes or $10K for an unusual paint color.

But they get the brakes and they get the paint. What they get with supposed "full self-driving" is puffery and lies.

Musk's public statements around FSD since 2014 have been lies: https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-promises-full-self-driving-ne...

In 2016 Tesla claimed that all Teslas being produced "will have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver." That was a lie: https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now...

And these days Teslas can't even do full self-parking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsb2XBAIWyA

Now the word is that suckers who paid for FSD in a Tesla with Hardware 3 probably won't get Hardware 4: https://www.thedrive.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-gets-new-self...

Tesla was recently done for false advertising around FSD: https://electrek.co/2022/12/12/tesla-ordered-upgrade-self-dr...

Tesla also admits they have failed to deliver full self-driving but they think they don't need to refund any money because "failure is not fraud": https://electrek.co/2022/12/07/tesla-self-driving-claims-fai...

Despite the admission of failure, Musk is still running around claiming that FSD will one day magically become the "biggest asset value increase of anything in history": https://electrek.co/2023/01/26/elon-musk-thinks-not-smart-do...

It's not even bullshit artistry. It's just bullshit.