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Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by cmdlinecowboy on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:54PM (#34570657)
Red Hat for enterprise use, Fedora for personal desktop use. One of the largest communities you’ll find. If you want Debian based maybe just straight Debian.

The centos debacle was poorly handled but I think what red hat was /trying/ to do made sense. The community just wasn’t there to sustain it. Red Hat was paying to give away free RHEL basically lol. CentOS Stream should have just been called RHEL Stream. It’s basically RHEL minus minor bugs that would only effect small pools of people.

I’m glad Rocky and Alma sprung up and have budding communities though.

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by Lucasoato on Sunday January 29, 2023 @01:03PM (#34570791)
Is there any specific reason to choose them over Linux Mint? I'm genuinely asking, I've never tried Red Hat or Fedora.
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by kleiba on Sunday January 29, 2023 @01:43PM (#34571239)
OP wants to get away from Ubuntu, but Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu. Maybe that would be reason for OP to disprefer Mint?
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by tmtvl on Sunday January 29, 2023 @02:10PM (#34571545)
What about LMDE?
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by exegete on Sunday January 29, 2023 @02:32PM (#34571781)
OP mentioned stability and long-term supported as what he’s looking for. The Linux Mint team have stated LMDE is more for themselves to gather info and not a priority. So I would stay away if looking for stability and long-term support.

“We work on LMDE primarily for us, to get that information. It is not a priority, certainly not compared to Linux Mint itself…” https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4276

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by pessimizer on Sunday January 29, 2023 @02:33PM (#34571799)
That's barely even a real distribution; it's an escape plan for Mint to leave Ubuntu if necessary. This is not a serious suggestion.
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by tejtm on Sunday January 29, 2023 @03:51PM (#34572606)
Mint so far has avoided forcing snaps, I will jump ship too if they do.
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by danieldk on Sunday January 29, 2023 @02:16PM (#34571608)
Fedora is much more secure (a strong focus on SELinux, secure boot, etc.). Fedora has more cutting edge software (latest GNOME, gcc, etc.) while still being very stable.

A large chunk of the gcc/glibc/GNOME/Wayland/... developers are employed by Red Hat and Fedora shows that, it's where the Linux workstation is going and has an amazingly good of integration of new tech. Most other mainstream distributions trail by several years.

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by timbit42 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @02:29PM (#34571746)
I would recommend Linux Mint for desktops and Debian stable for servers.
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by EFreethought on Sunday January 29, 2023 @02:30PM (#34571753)
One of OP's issues is Ubuntu forcing snaps. I think Mint disables snap by default:

https://linuxmint-user-guide.readthedocs.io/en/latest/snap.h...

Another Ubuntu derivative that does not use snaps is System76's Pop!_OS

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by criddell on Sunday January 29, 2023 @03:47PM (#34572563)
Isn’t one of the purposes of snaps to allow finer grained permissions? In non-snap systems, how do you prevent that weather app you just installed from accessing your camera and microphone?
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by eVeechu7 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @03:53PM (#34572627)
It runs as a user without the necessary permissions to access those devices?
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by dotancohen on Sunday January 29, 2023 @04:19PM (#34572868)
So one should configure an alternative user for each group of permissions that any arbitrary app might need? Then what happens the day that I do decide that my weather app should access e.g. my location? Now I should move all its data and update my launch scripts to the new user?

I happen to dislike snaps as well. The hard coded install directory is a passion point for me. But at least the permissions issue they are getting right.

I wish that desktop distros would adopt the Android permissions paradigm.

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by sswezey on Monday January 30, 2023 @09:14AM (#34579814)
No, you can create groups for permissions that you'd like to enable and disable and add the user to the appropriate groups.
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by EFreethought on Monday January 30, 2023 @11:53AM (#34582527)
The snap service tends to run when it wants and it can slow down a system when it runs. Also the snap binaries are a lot larger than with apt.

Honestly, I don't think a weather app would access a camera or microphone. That seems like a bad example. Honestly, I put a piece of tape over my camera. It looks like other posters in this thread have solutions.

Using more hard drive space than needed and not being able to control the service are show-stoppers for a lot of people, and it looks like the permissions issue has another solution.

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by exegete on Sunday January 29, 2023 @02:35PM (#34571811)
Here’s why not Linux Mint. It’s a few years old so I’m not sure if these issues are solved but I’ve never heard of Debian or Fedora having these issues: https://lwn.net/Articles/676664/
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by csdreamer7 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:01PM (#34575355)
Fedora is a nice busy, but power user and developer experience: only rolling for the parts you would care about with a year of security support.

Fedora is especially useful for a new hardware workstation with that year of support. Any longer than that in my experience you tend to run into issues. For example: DXVK, for Windows games with Steam/Proton, just moved to requiring Mesa 22.0 as a minimum and Fedora 35 has Mesa 22.1 something. Similar issues with Ruby development in the past.

Updates are more limited, with a few select packages kept rolling compared to a true rolling distro like Arch. When a new kernel series is release (6.0 => 6.1) Fedora holds off for a few weeks to test until 6.0 goes EOL. Gnome is kept to it's major release with only minor versions to fix bugs. Mesa is updated until a Fedora is released. Firefox is kept up to date and I use the snap for VSCode and Chromium based browsers. Most other packages are not updated to major new versions, except for Vim (and Emacs if I remember).

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by maxk42 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @01:05PM (#34570818)
Unfortunately Fedora has been making a lot of similar decisions to Ubuntu lately, although it's still better IMO. I'd say coming from Ubuntu, Mint is probably a lower learning curve anyway.
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by yoyohello13 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @01:39PM (#34571195)
What decisions? Fedora is my daily driver and I follow Fedora dev pretty closely, so far they haven’t done anything like Ubuntu. Maybe the custom Flathub repo? But that’s a requirement for them since they can’t host proprietary software for legal reasons.
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by danieldk on Sunday January 29, 2023 @02:17PM (#34571622)
As far as I understand, the next Fedora release will stop masking most of Flathub by default.
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by bloopernova on Sunday January 29, 2023 @01:13PM (#34570900)
Could you please give some examples of those similar decisions? I'm eager to find any evidence of the Fedora admins as bad actors.
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by prophesi on Sunday January 29, 2023 @01:38PM (#34571187)
My only complaint is that the switch to Wireplumber caused a lot of audio issues on my machine until I reverted back to PulseAudio.

I could also see people not wanting Wayland by default, though that has been working fine for me and the software I use.

I've only been using Fedora for 2 years, but apart from those two decisions, it's been a lot more stable than my time with Ubuntu.

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by gtirloni on Sunday January 29, 2023 @03:04PM (#34572095)
> I could also see people not wanting Wayland by default

It takes a single line change in /etc/gdm/custom.conf to disable it.

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by jerryzh on Monday January 30, 2023 @05:26AM (#34577980)
Even easier, at login window you can select, and then it will remember your choice.
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by johnny22 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @02:24PM (#34571707)
I haven't seen a decision made in the past that would be relevant, but there is one for future fedora releases https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/269 about installing certain apps as flatpaks rather than rpms by default. These would be fedora based flatpaks rather than from flathub.

It does not actually say how it interacts with existing rpms or whether said rpms will continue to exist or be maintained in the future.

I would say it's too early to get up in arms about just yet.

Me personally, I agree with this approach, but a lot of other people clearly won't.

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by Sunspark on Sunday January 29, 2023 @02:34PM (#34571802)
Fedora should not be recommended anymore for personal desktop use for the simple reason that they removed hardware accelerated video decoding and encoding support. Must all run on the CPU now.
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by jacooper on Sunday January 29, 2023 @02:59PM (#34572039)
You can enable it manually, like almost every other non-beginner friendly fedora quirk

https://ask.fedoraproject.org/t/proprietary-video-codecs-are...

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by Sunspark on Monday January 30, 2023 @12:59AM (#34576292)
The nice thing about Windows and MacOS is that users aren't expected to jump through hoops to restore functionality.
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by jacooper on Monday January 30, 2023 @09:26AM (#34579941)
I mean its not limited to macOS, you can just use Ubuntu or any other more user friendly distro.

Fedora isn't really noon friendly, and probably will never be, because of copyright limitations compared to the UK where Canonical is based.

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by Delk on Sunday January 29, 2023 @04:00PM (#34572695)
It's a bit more nuanced than that. Fedora disabled hardware video decoding support in their Mesa builds, which mostly affects AMD GPUs. Intel has hardware video decoding in the GPU driver (or in the firmware or wherever), and it's not dependent on Mesa having it enabled. NVidia of course does its own thing.

It's still a shame for AMD GPU users, of course, although understandable from the point of view of legal risk management.

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by jacooper on Sunday January 29, 2023 @03:08PM (#34572147)
My main gripe with RHEL based distros is the lack of support for in-place upgrades. I know you shouldn't do it, etc but for small servers that can benefit from newer kernel versions, its annoying.

Also dnf-autoupdate doesn't support auto restarts to update the kernel.

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by fweimer on Sunday January 29, 2023 @03:37PM (#34572461)
Red Hat Enterprise Linux supports in-place upgrades: https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_enterp... https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_enterp...

Here “supports” means “does not result in itself in a loss of support coverage”. It's been possible to do it in an unsupported fashion before.

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by jacooper on Sunday January 29, 2023 @06:25PM (#34573894)
Not rhel clones though, which are what most small scale people are going to use. Also still no auto kernal updates.
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by e1g on Monday January 30, 2023 @05:34AM (#34578029)
RHEL is free for up to 15 instances (including prod), and 9.1 has pleasantly current packages. It’s a solid choice for startups and small teams who need to minimize time spent on infrastructure.
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by jacooper on Monday January 30, 2023 @09:27AM (#34579946)
I found the one year renewal thing annoying, but other than that it looks to be really good! Just the auto kernel update part is left
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by e1g on Monday January 30, 2023 @11:46AM (#34582401)
Kernel live patching helps to guard against major security and bug issues and is fully automated in RHEL via kpatch.
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by jacooper on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @04:32AM (#34593144)
But is paid, I don't necessarily need livepatching, just auto restarts to update the kernel
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by e1g on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @10:50AM (#34596647)
Not quite sure which scenario you mean, but both of these work in the official RHEL distro that is free for up to 15 instances:

1. Restart is ok: automatically apply all security updates as they come out ("dnf-automatic), then restart if required ("needs-restarting -r").

2. Restart is not ok: automatically apply all kernel patches as they come out("kpatch auto")

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by jacooper on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @11:09AM (#34596950)
Dnf automatic should support restart now! https://github.com/rpm-software-management/dnf/pull/1879

However its o my going to work on rhel 10 or anything that has very very up to date DNF version.

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by jacooper on Wednesday February 01, 2023 @03:42AM (#34608025)
Only*
Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by kjellsbells on Sunday January 29, 2023 @04:01PM (#34572707)
I just moved over from Ubuntu to Fedora as I felt I was starting to lose my edge: apt is so easy you forget that the other half of the universe thinks in dnf and I need to keep my skills sharp. Its been a good decision.

A bad decision was to use a Fedora mix with KDE. It works very well, but I think its rough edges would simply not be there if I'd chosen the GNOME path. You get the sense that the RH team default to GNOME and KDE is an afterthought. Which is fine by me, but its a bit of a shame, cos I much prefer it.

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by nobody9999 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @04:40PM (#34573060)
>A bad decision was to use a Fedora mix with KDE. It works very well, but I think its rough edges would simply not be there if I'd chosen the GNOME path.

I've been using Fedora as a desktop for many years and agree that KDE is annoying. That said, I understand your point of view, but I find Gnome to be even more so.

Which is why I use XFCE[0] instead. It generally works pretty well, although I don't push it all that hard. Perhaps it might be a good desktop for you too?

[0] https://techviewleo.com/install-xfce-desktop-environment-on-...

Re:Ask HN: What Next After Ubuntu? by dotancohen on Sunday January 29, 2023 @04:13PM (#34572815)
KDE user here who has been installing Debian derived distros for about a decade, Fedora Core before that. I often reconsider Fedora. What KDE specific issues should I know about before giving serious consideration to moving back?