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Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by chizhik-pyzhik on Saturday January 28, 2023 @01:40PM (#34560216)
This article is a good overview of the research about treatment-first vs housing-first approaches.

The last paragraph is pretty clear on the real difficulty:

>The major obstacles to resolving homelessness remain ideological. It is politically hard to sell the idea that people who take drugs or are disruptive should get free housing – even when the evidence shows that is actually what works.

Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by epicureanideal on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:01PM (#34560423)
I guarantee I could produce a program that would be acceptable to conservatives and provide free housing.

Note also that Utah, a very conservative state, solves homelessness in exactly this way.

It just might be that the housing would not be provided by funneling huge amounts of tax dollars to the rentier class, and might involve constructing more houses, and therefore would be opposed by the left.

Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by xabotage on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:05PM (#34560471)
Homelessness doesn't exactly sound "solved" in Utah... https://www.sltrib.com/news/2022/12/22/this-year-least-159-h...
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by chimeracoder on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:09PM (#34560503)
> Homelessness doesn't exactly sound "solved" in Utah...

In ten years, incidence of chronic homelessness in Utah went from 1,932 to 178.

Solving 91% of homelessness is a fantastic achievement, even if the remaining 9% needs further work.

Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by vkou on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:21PM (#34561388)
They didn't solve it by 90%, they lied with statistics, and compared exponential-growth forecasted counts with point-in time counts.

The reduction was closer to 60%, and in the past few years, they've stopped investing in the program. It's been a good thing, but without ongoing effort and investment it will regress back to the mean.

Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by superorganism on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:11PM (#34560518)
If you guarantee you could do this, then do it? Plenty of states the left has no actual say in governance (MS, AL, SC, FL, TX) right now- perfect time to prove it.
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by enkid on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:08PM (#34560492)
I'm so confused by this comment. Are you suggesting the left is against public housing and pro landlord?
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by epicureanideal on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:09PM (#34560506)
Yes that’s exactly what I’m saying. More precisely, they’re for public housing only if they can capture a lot of the funds to enrich themselves and their supporters and friends.

See also the book “SanFranSicko” by Michael Schellenberger.

Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by 8note on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:19PM (#34560614)
To get it done in a republican area, you'd use the same trend. The people in charge only do things that benefit themselves
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by enkid on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:16PM (#34560572)
Don't confuse "democrats" and "the left". The left has historically come to power by seeking land reform and has a history of redistributing their land, at times violently. Think the Soviet Union, the PRC, or looking further back, the Paris Commune, the extreme strands of the French Revolution, etc. Democrats, despite the rhetoric from some circles, is a firmly conservative party that most people who would self identify as leftists would disagree with a lot of their economic policy as implemented by Obama, Clinton, and Biden.
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by lupire on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:13PM (#34560539)
"the left" has a lot of people in it.
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by LarryMullins on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:19PM (#34560611)
A lot of people? I've been informed by knowledgeable Europeans that a left wing doesn't exist in America at all!
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by pksebben on Saturday January 28, 2023 @04:21PM (#34562037)
a couple generations of ostensibly left individuals got co -opted and hoodwinked into playing team politics, because they grew up in a time when the economy worked better in general and the effects of politics in general were more subtle.

Additionally, the two party system has effectively declawed the vox populi and made the barriers to change very, very large.

This means that until we're out of boomers (and a significant portion of Gen xers) the isn't going to be a possibility of the sort of critical mass necessary to make the systemic changes we need to reconnect the will of the people with the behavior of the government / media / business machine.

Although, if we make it that far, I'm sure the well organized entrenched upper class will have a whole new set of tricks to try. It's very difficult to properly organize against them.

Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by dr_stanpuy on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:16PM (#34560581)
That... sounds like political propaganda. What is with so many comments the past few months trying to pin societal issues on the left/California/woke bogeyman?
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by SCdF on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:23PM (#34560667)
I have never met a left wing person who is pro landlord, is this some weird American spin on "the left"?
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by chimeracoder on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:33PM (#34560802)
> I have never met a left wing person who is pro landlord, is this some weird American spin on "the left"?

It's a variant of a straw man that right wing people sometimes use. Which makes sense given that OP is forming their perceptions of the left from a book subtitled "How Progressives Destroy Cities".

Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by bscphil on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:52PM (#34561034)
I'm fairly confident by "the left" they mean "wealthy California liberals", so basically, not the left. If you think that by virtue of being the most "left leaning" cities, San Francisco and Los Angeles must be left wing, it's not that far fetched. Unfortunately this idea is undermined by actually having lived in one of these cities.
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by vkou on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:17PM (#34561345)
Indeed. The 'Liberal' cities are socially liberal, but economically conservative, so they are full of initiatives like legalizing marijuana and mushrooms and rainbow-painted crosswalks and naked bike rides, while at the same time, pushing back hard on any economic solutions to housing.

(Conservative areas are generally both socially, and economically conservative. I know someone will mention Utah's housing first program, and I'll cut them off at the pass, by pointing out that subsequent governments have been severely under investing in it.)

Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by millimeterman on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:55PM (#34561751)
I wonder what "economically conservative" means here. Usually I would expect someone economically conservative to be against government intervention and prefer market-oriented solutions to problems, but the people you're talking about tend to want the opposite.
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by millimeterman on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:56PM (#34561098)
Directly? No. But indirectly? Yes. The rampancy of NIMBY, PHIMBY, and "anti-gentrification" attitudes leads to decreased construction, increased housing prices, and the enrichment of (existing) landlords at the expense of tenants.
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by enkid on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:13PM (#34561303)
How is this a "left" only thing?
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by millimeterman on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:36PM (#34561554)
It's not, but I didn't say it was. Plus the reasons that "the left" opposes housing are generally quite different than the reasons "the right" opposes housing.
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by LarryMullins on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:18PM (#34560596)
> I guarantee I could produce a program that would be acceptable to conservatives and provide free housing.

That's trivial; prison. (Ignoring the part where prisons now charge prisoners rent...)

Finding a solution everybody can agree on is much harder than finding a solution only one side or the other can agree with.

Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:05PM (#34561211)
> That's trivial; prison.

This comment proves you don't know your adversary, which is a dangerous situation to be in.

Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by LarryMullins on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:32PM (#34561513)
Are you saying that jailing the homeless wouldn't be popular with conservatives? I'm quite sure it actually is (although they prefer running them out of town because that's even cheaper.)
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by lotsoweiners on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:26PM (#34561443)
Care to elaborate?
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by yellowapple on Saturday January 28, 2023 @04:54PM (#34562370)
I have numerous conervative family members, acquaintances, and friends. That comment proves one knows one's adversary remarkably well.

Historical and contemporary conservative approaches to homelessness tend to fixate on criminalization and enforcement: more cops to break up camps, more pretenses to jail homeless persons, more opportunities for the prison-industrial complex to get its cheap labor. "Jail the beggars, jail the addicts, jail the crazies." Today, a century ago, a millennium ago... the dynamics between the rich and poor are basically unchanged; all that's changed, at most, is how the rich get selected.

Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by Overtonwindow on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:03PM (#34560436)
Utah has done wonders for its homeless population with the housing first initiative and I think it's a model for the rest of the country.
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by pessimizer on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:04PM (#34560455)
Socialism becomes a lot more palatable to majority populations as long as minority populations are kept to a minimum. With a reasonable expectation that the recipients of help look like you, helping starts to seem more like an obligation than an imposition.
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by LarryMullins on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:24PM (#34560676)
Amazon is known to track low workplace diversity as a unionization risk. Diverse work forces are less likely to unionize.
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by epicureanideal on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:06PM (#34560476)
The loss of the distinction between the deserving poor and the undeserving poor also caused many people who would’ve supported help to one of those to just throw their hands in the air and forget the whole thing.
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by 8note on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:22PM (#34560649)
It's gone for good reason. "Deserving" tends to mean "white" and "Undeserving" tends to mean "Black"
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by superorganism on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:12PM (#34560530)
Well don't leave us hanging, how do you make the distinction?
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by pessimizer on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:15PM (#34560562)
That's what I'm talking about. The ability to hold back aid from the "undeserving" becomes a lot less important to people who live in relative homogeneity racially and culturally. Absolutely no surprise to me that Utah is relatively socialist internally while being on the extreme right externally.
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by chimeracoder on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:41PM (#34560900)
> Absolutely no surprise to me that Utah is relatively socialist internally while being on the extreme right externally.

Utah is also heavily Mormon, which complicates things. Mormons have a lot of beliefs that sound fairly socialist when you describe them in practice, except that they believe the church should be the administrator of those policies.

Mormons also heavily oppose abortion, which makes them a nearly single-issue voting bloc, making Utah deep red in a purely partisan sense.

If somehow abortion were a non-issue - like, overnight, everyone somehow magically forgot abortion even existed - it's not hard to imagine Mormons being one of the least conservative Christian denominations.

(Yes, I'm aware that other Christians don't consider the LDS to be Christians, but that's beside the point)

Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by yellowapple on Saturday January 28, 2023 @04:45PM (#34562296)
Mormon conservatism encompasses a lot more than just abortion. Discrimination by gender and orientation are still doctrine, and to some extent so is discrimination by race.

A lot of hardline religious sects superficially look like socialism if you only examine their in-groups and entirely ignore their out-groups. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is no exception.

Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by chimeracoder on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:37PM (#34560843)
> Socialism becomes a lot more palatable to majority populations as long as minority populations are kept to a minimum.

You're getting downvoted, but you're broadly correct. There's a lot of research showing how more homogeneously white populations are more likely to support leftist or socialist policies (policies, not affiliation) than people of the same demographics who live in more heterogeneous places.

Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by cudgy on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:51PM (#34561710)
How does that concept reconcile with Mississippi having a low homelessness rate and providing housing at a high rate for those that need it despite a non-homogenous population?

The key according to this article is the cost of housing, not implied racism.

https://brownpoliticalreview.org/2021/12/being-poor-alone-do...

Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by unity1001 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:43PM (#34560931)
> people who take drugs

The majority of effectively homeless in the US are working people. This means people who dont own or rent any kind of housing. They crash in other people's places, frequently going homeless for periods. This includes working families. Their size is estimated in millions.

The chronic homeless are people who dont even have any place to crash from time to time. People refer to these people as 'the homeless', without knowing that a lot of the above category also enters this category frequently over any given year. The chronic homeless category also includes working people due to the skyrocketing housing costs, especially in major metropolises like NY, SF etc. This segment's size is estimated in a range in between 500,000 to 3 million, depending on whose research and criteria you take.

Drug addicts are also in this category, and the existing economic establishment prefers to identify the homeless with them in order to thwart any reform that could cause an increase in their taxes or disturb the real estate sector.

...

So that's right - the problem is ideological. But maybe even before that, its economical - those who hoard the wealth dont want anyone to disturb them and their ever-increasing hoards of wealth with any pesky taxes...

Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by vkou on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:13PM (#34561297)
This is one big root of the problem. There are very few resources that someone falling into homelessness can lean on, that are not their friends/family.

People who have that safety net can spend a few weeks or months crashing on couches until they get their housing situation sorted out. People who, for whatever reason, don't, are the ones trying to hold a job while living out of a car, and one bad encounter with the police can cause them to lose that job.

And once you fall into the same strata as the chronic homeless, it is almost impossible to crawl out of it.

If you want to reduce the number of chronic homeless give years from now, we need services for the temporary homeless, today. If you're getting kicked out of your apartment next Tuesday, and have nobody you can lean on, what you need is four walls and a roof so that you don't land on the street.

Neither section 8 housing, nor the current shelter system supply that. Especially if you're a man, or are queer, or, or, or...

Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by nipponese on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:12PM (#34561281)
My observation is that it's more politically contentious to decide where to put these free homes. We have a lot of them in the SF Bay Area (some legit, many not), and they all attract activity that "I don't love" having kids around.

I try to fight my internal NIMBYism, but clutter horde and verbal assaults are where I draw the line.

Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by Gigachad on Saturday January 28, 2023 @04:15PM (#34561961)
Iirc the Victorian government in Australia decided to buy individual apartments in high rises to put drug addicts in resulting in the buildings becoming so unsafe that the original occupants had to sell and move somewhere else. Turning them in to radical anti public housing activists so they don’t have to move and lose a load of money again.
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by AlexTWithBeard on Saturday January 28, 2023 @07:30PM (#34563559)
Yeah, the problem here is that leaving syringes on the floor, urinating in flower beds and talking shit is insufficient to arrest the person. But is sufficient to drive a lot of tenants away from the house.
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by AlexTWithBeard on Saturday January 28, 2023 @07:28PM (#34563540)
Because as soon as it happens, I will be first in the line with the question: okay, what should I do to get a free house? Do I need to consume drugs? Would weed do, or it has to be some heavier stuff?
Re:We can reduce homelessness if we follow the science on wh... by kthejoker2 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @09:29AM (#34568421)
As usual, the logic is backwards, tons of people who take drugs and are disruptive have housing, lack of housing make those things worse.

From the New York Times article on my hometown Houston trying to end homelessness with a housing first policy:

> But housing first involves a different logic: When you’re drowning, it doesn’t help if your rescuer insists you learn to swim before returning you to shore. You can address your issues once you’re on land. Or not. Either way, you join the wider population of people battling demons behind closed doors.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/headway/houston-homeless-...