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Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by userbinator on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @09:20PM (#34513571)
and many of these technologies are now showing up via Project Pluton.

More awareness needs to be made of how this will have a devestating impact on end-user freedom. They're attacking the PC, one of the last holdouts of general-purpose computing freedom. Remote attestation will make it so you "can" technically run your own hardware and software (and that's what the FUD-spreaders will always say), but you'll be denied access to lots of, increasingly online, services.

Edit: nice, downvotes. Hello corpo-authoritarians, we know what's up :-)

Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by RandomBK on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @09:38PM (#34513687)
Apple (and to a lesser extent Android) have already gone this route, and Windows 11 originally wanted to push _hard_ on enforcing the presence of more platform security. DRM schemes already perform remote attestation before you can stream 4K Netflix.

Linux and Open Source may be one of the last remaining barriers to this becoming widespread. It's one of the main reasons I whole-heartedly support Valve and their Steam Deck ambitions, and encourage everyone to do the same. Money trumps everything else, so as long as the money to be made from supporting SteamOS > money thought to be saved from piracy, I believe we can still thwart this.

Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by transpute on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @09:48PM (#34513756)
> DRM schemes already perform remote attestation before you can stream 4K Netflix.

On Intel clients, this is done via the Management Engine, bypassing both the CPU and operating system, as the ME can control display output.

Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by SturgeonsLaw on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @12:44AM (#34514850)
Is there any mechanism for it to validate that the thing connected to the display output is an unmodified monitor which also implements DRM? Otherwise it would be almost trivial to have a device with HDMI-in that gets a pixel perfect feed of the protected stream.
Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by userbinator on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @12:52AM (#34514890)
Yes, that's called HDCP. The master key was cracked long ago for older versions.
Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by toast0 on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @01:27AM (#34515076)
For new versions, you can get a converter; hdcp 2.2 -> hdcp 1.4 and then use whatevee breakage on 1.4. So it's only effective if you don't search.
Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by lfodofod on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @04:40AM (#34516376)
You can’t produce good quality rips like this, if that was the best solution the DRM people would have won.
Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by callesgg on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @05:42AM (#34516754)
You can produce pixel perfect rips. But since the resulting video file is so large you will "need" to compress it, and then you get compression on compression artefacts.
Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by lfodofod on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @07:32AM (#34517482)
Yes, indeed. Pixel perfect rips of already compressed streams, immensely blowing up the size and requiring another round of lossy compression to actually be useful.
Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by tjoff on Thursday January 26, 2023 @02:31AM (#34528750)
And the result after recompression is impeccable so it is not a big deal. It is just a bit cumbersome.
Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by lfodofod on Thursday January 26, 2023 @03:10AM (#34529048)
The result after recompression is far from impeccable.
Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by tjoff on Thursday January 26, 2023 @03:58AM (#34529352)
On high bitrate content you wouldn't notice.
Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by lfodofod on Thursday January 26, 2023 @04:58AM (#34529766)
Sure, but you get to push your encoder settings far less than you otherwise could. You always end up with either significantly bigger files or significantly lower quality.
Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by Dylan16807 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:36AM (#34555941)
It's significant closer to 5 percent or 50 percent?
Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by kevincox on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @12:28PM (#34521250)
It would be really interesting to make a video compressor that specializes in "recompressing" previously compressed data. A simple version could be special handling of common compression artifacts and trying to detect various transforms and trying to take advantage of the detail already removed instead of removing additional detail.

If you knew the codec used originally you could even try to (near) perfectly reconstruct the original bitstream. Especially if you know various codec parameters and some side-channel data (such as which video data is contained in which encrypted blocks) it may be possible to relatively efficiently search for the bitstream that decompresses to the data that you are seeing.

Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by alexklarjr on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @12:27PM (#34521241)
doubt it, should be on OS level, gpu control for all possible vendors and output formats is impossible without gpu driver support.
Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by transpute on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @05:10PM (#34524858)
It's specific to the Intel GPU. Intel PAVP (Protected Audio-Video Path). See page 192 of Intel's "Platform Embedded Security Technology Revealed" (2014), https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-1-4302-6572-6
Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by calo_star on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @09:57PM (#34513822)
Not to mention that no design is absolutely safe, and if security enclaves like Pluton get exploited to run backdoor, it'll be a lot harder for end user to detect.
Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by transpute on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:27PM (#34514029)
It's worth looking at the multi-year CHERI research project on capabilities, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30007474, which has influenced Arm security features and roadmaps. Pluton could be viewed as a stepping stone to CHERI. From a recent blog post by MS Research, https://saaramar.github.io/memory_safety_blogpost_2022/

> these tiny parts usually run with high privileges and dramatically impact the overall system. In such cases, MTE/CHERI play pretty nicely - they help ensure that whatever bugs we have in these areas are killed at their root cause (probabilistically/deterministically). This is exactly why MSR, MSRC and Azure Silicon pushed for this AMAZING project of CheriIoT ... scaling CHERI down to RISC-V32E, the smallest core RISC-V specification. I’m very excited about this project, and I hope once we will open-source the ISA and the prototype, more folks across the industry could join.

That is a direction that would benefit everyone: open silicon and open firmware for the most security sensitive components. It is technically possible and at least some humans in big companies understand why it is necessary for our future would-be-digital civilizations.

Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by danudey on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @03:39PM (#34523857)
See also: Intel Management Engine exploits.

https://kakaroto.ca/2019/11/exploiting-intels-management-eng...

Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by transpute on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @10:07PM (#34513899)
> Remote attestation will make it so you "can" technically run your own hardware and software (and that's what the FUD-spreaders will always say), but you'll be denied access to lots of, increasingly online, services.

It's good to raise awareness of the centralization risks of remote attestation. One pro-security, pro-freedom alternative is local attestation, e.g. to a USB security key running OSS firmware under user control. Widespread use of user-controlled attestations would make it harder for cloud services to impose unilateral requirements, requiring negotiation among competing objectives.

One remote attestation scenario could be disaggregation of critical apps into dedicated on-device VMs which look like cloud lambdas/functions/unikernels. Remote attestation could be done for a special-purpose VM (e.g. banking), leaving other general purpose OS VMs unrestricted. This is possible today with Windows Hyper-V on secured-core x86/Arm hardware, Android 13 with the pKVM hypervisor on Pixel 6/7 hardware, and the HP/Bromium AX hypervisor.

MS/Pluton thread, https://twitter.com/dwizzzlemsft/status/1511440279462563842

> what are they going to say when it's supported in Linux and we open source it ... the Pluton team also uses Linux daily, builds TWO Microsoft Linux distros, and upstreams Linux kernel features.

On servers, a forward-looking approach is being taken with OCP Caliptra, an open root of trust that will precede booting of the main SoC (including Pluton) and mandates open firmware that must be dual-signed by both the OEM and the datacenter owner. It is an early attempt to forestall ME/PSP/BMC Groundhog Day. If it succeeds on OCP servers (where datacenter owners have power to negotiate with OEM/ODMs), perhaps more transparency and owner control/veto can be brought to client devices, https://twitter.com/platformsec/status/1533398356088737793.

Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by userbinator on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @12:28AM (#34514750)
One pro-security, pro-freedom alternative is local attestation

What's the point? That's about as useful as running your own CA. The fact is, those pushing remote attestation want remote centralised control and they're going to care that you have your own attestation infrastructure as much as they'll care that you have your own CA, i.e. they're not going to be satisfied because they're trusting their own, and not yours.

the Pluton team also uses Linux daily, builds TWO Microsoft Linux distros, and upstreams Linux kernel features.

That's even scarier. If the only form of "supported" Linux becomes Microsoft Linux (with its own unique brand of spyware and other crap forced on you due to RA), don't say we never saw it coming: Embrace, Extend, Extinguish... or perhaps that last E should now be Enslave.

If it succeeds on OCP servers (where datacenter owners have power to negotiate with OEM/ODMs), perhaps more transparency and owner control/veto can be brought to client devices,

We already had "owner control" until they started trying to take that away from us. We don't need nor want attestation at all. No means NO!

Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by transpute on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @12:41AM (#34514834)
> they're not going to be satisfied because they're trusting their own, and not yours.

This cuts in both directions. Unlike certificates, attestation is not a zero-sum fight over a single monolithic measurement attribute that can only be A or B, it can support a goal of having A and B, e.g. as disaggregated VMs. If a cloud wants subset B, then the user/owner/enterprise local attestation can insist that the client must have subset A, otherwise it can reject subset-B-without-A.

Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by IYasha on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @03:52AM (#34515994)
> What's the point? That's about as useful as running your own CA.

Running your own CA IS useful.

Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by nine_k on Tuesday January 24, 2023 @11:28PM (#34514421)
The PC will eventually lock up more. Free general-purpose computing will remain on things like Raspberry Pi (and many other variants). There will be Windows computers, like we now have Macs, and Windows-incapable computers to run Linux (or whatever else open OS).
Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by userbinator on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @12:37AM (#34514810)
Free general-purpose computing will remain on things like Raspberry Pi

Leaving aside the debatable nature of how open and free a RPi is, what's the point of "general-purpose computing" when it can't actually be used? When/if you need a locked-down machine controlled by some central authority to do what you can still do today with a free and open one, i.e. create and consume media, interact with services, communicate with others, etc., how much value does a truly libre computer have? It's almost like the "just build your own platform" argument when it comes to censorship.

Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by transpute on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @01:17AM (#34515017)
RPi boot path includes the GPU/VPU, which runs a binary blob based on an older version of ThreadX RTOS, whose upstream is now called Azure RTOS ThreadX. Work on an open-source replacement has been slowly inching forward for a few years.

Arm, including the quirky RPi, is not comparable in openness to x86 general purpose desktops, which were a happy confluence of accidents, determined individuals and scrappy businesses. That is still worth defending, if only to slow the slide backwards.

M1 Macs have a unique take on hardware security that can co-exist with general-purpose computing for open-source Linux, and Apple's vertical integration. https://archive.fosdem.org/2022/schedule/speaker/xeno_kovah/. Hopefully Asahi Linux will succeed in creating a relatively maintainable port for multiple generations of Apple Silicon.

Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by pabs3 on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @02:02AM (#34515280)
The open replacement for the RPi boot blob:

https://github.com/librerpi/

Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by tjoff on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @04:54AM (#34516476)
You say this on a forum where the majority probably has an iphone or imac, of course people are going to be tone-deaf to it.

Not even the HN-audience cares enough to turn down something shiny.

Re:How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard-drive is genuine by danudey on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @03:34PM (#34523805)
> More awareness needs to be made of how this will have a devestating impact on end-user freedom. They're attacking the PC, one of the last holdouts of general-purpose computing freedom.

This situation reminds me of the fuss around Palladium, a solution which seemed to be abandoned by Microsoft on its merits:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-Generation_Secure_Computi...

> Edit: nice, downvotes. Hello corpo-authoritarians, we know what's up :-)

This also reminds me of the fuss around Palladium:

https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/07/22/m