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Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by Retric on Monday January 23, 2023 @10:05AM (#34489613)
f(x) = x + 1 is insufficiently defined here.

It’s easy to pretend math is some universal language but it’s really several mutually exclusive languages.

Infinity is not a number. You can pretend it is and there are several ways to build a mathematical system around such a choice, but it isn’t inherently correct. So in your example f(x) may no longer include negative infinity and there is no paradox, it may include multiple infinite numbers and the lowest of them are now excluded, or you can say x and f(x) are the same etc.

Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by jjgreen on Monday January 23, 2023 @10:17AM (#34489784)
Infinity is not a number

It depends on what you think a number is. Most people who think about it agree a number is the name that we give to equinumerate sets, so two eggs and two ducks are equinumerate, we can give a bijection between these sets; they have the same property, "twoness" and we abstract twoness to the number 2. If so, then infinity is a number, it this the number-ness of the set {1, 2, 3, ... }

Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by quchen on Monday January 23, 2023 @10:43AM (#34490127)
> It depends on what you think a number is.

Let’s not mix up teminology and semantics. What a number here is is quite clear, we’re all talking about relatively standard math, the standard axiom of choice, and not some opinion on numbers. Sure, you can also say a planet is a mammal »depending on what you think a mammal is«, but that doesn’t lead to any sort of fruitful discussion.

Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by jjgreen on Monday January 23, 2023 @10:54AM (#34490323)
So what would you say a number is if not a name for the equivalences of set bijections? Genuinely interested, what is 2?
Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by vcxy on Monday January 23, 2023 @11:00AM (#34490422)
There is no bijection between the natural numbers and the power set of the natural numbers. When talking about bijections to study the sizes of sets, there is clearly not just one infinity. Also consider the extended real line, this makes infinity a perfectly good number as well in a different way.

My point is that infinity is certainly not an individual number. It represents quite a few concepts, all of which have some number like qualities.

Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by jjgreen on Monday January 23, 2023 @11:04AM (#34490488)
Indeed, but when people say "infinity is not a number" they generally mean ℵ₀, and that is (in my view) as much a (cardinal) number as 2. Once you have that established, then you go on to discuss the higher ℵs and the continuum hypothesis ...
Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by vcxy on Monday January 23, 2023 @11:25AM (#34490875)
> when people say "infinity is not a number" they generally mean aleph-0

Sure, maybe. I think saying "infinity is a number" is wrong regardless. I'm happy with aleph-0 being a number, and I'm happy with it having a label of infinity. I'm just not happy with treating infinity as a single thing. We're totally on the same page in every way that matters though. I'm also certainly with you on questioning Retric's comment for a number of reasons, haha.

edit: Actually...I'm not so sure they mean aleph-0. I think frequently they mean the infinity of the extended real line. Maybe it depends on the context of the conversation.

Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by jjgreen on Monday January 23, 2023 @11:38AM (#34491094)
It's actually a great ice-breaker for first-year maths undergrads, when talking about limits or whatever drop in "... to infinity and beyond!", laughter follows, then say "You think I'm joking? Put down your pens ..." and informally outline the aleph hierarchy, then things get rather quiet.
Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by vcxy on Monday January 23, 2023 @11:49AM (#34491326)
Ahh I wish I had gotten the chance to interact with new math majors more often. In grad school most of my students were engineering majors. I'm not super likely to end up back in academia. My published research is...sparse. I have post-doc opportunity but it's not the greatest, and the route to life stability is not so clear. Are you a math professor?
Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by jjgreen on Monday January 23, 2023 @11:57AM (#34491493)
No, a developer; I spent several years as applied maths researcher though, and UK universities love to use researchers as cheap lecturers (not that I'm complaining, rather enjoyed it).
Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by vcxy on Monday January 23, 2023 @12:18PM (#34491829)
Cool. I have a second interview for a software developer position at a quantum computing place this week. Hopefully I'll be following you into the field!
Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by jjgreen on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @04:26AM (#34516267)
ℵ₀ [is] as much a (cardinal) number as 2

Note that this view is common but not universal: https://cs.nyu.edu/pipermail/fom/2023-January/023710.html

Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by syzarian on Monday January 23, 2023 @10:54AM (#34490316)
Your post doesn’t make sense mathematically. As a function from the reals to the reals the function f(x) = x+1 doesn’t “include negative infinity” (have no idea what that is supposed to mean). Negative infinity is not a real number and is not in the domain of the function or its range. If you think “infinity” (which one?) is not a number then do you believe there are no infinite ordinals? How do you justify the view that countably infinite ordinals don’t exist?
Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by Retric on Monday January 23, 2023 @11:01AM (#34490436)
You are making assumptions, define the lowest real number.
Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by Arkhaine_kupo on Monday January 23, 2023 @11:19AM (#34490754)
The negative reals are an infinite set, that doesn't make "negative infinity" a real number though. Negativy infinity is a concept, that can be used in some math frameworks, but it is not defined within R.

See this exchange for details

https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2812355/does-infini...

Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by Retric on Monday January 23, 2023 @01:55PM (#34493247)
I am trying to allude to transfinite numbers and annoy mathematicians without losing a general audience, feel free to ignore such things.
Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by syzarian on Monday January 23, 2023 @11:02AM (#34490466)
There are well defined models of the real numbers. You don’t know enough mathematics to comment intelligently on this topic. What you wrote above makes no sense.

EDIT: There is no least real number under the standard ordering. There is a least real number for a given well ordering. If you are asking me to define a well ordering on the reals then your request question should have been stated differently.

Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by Retric on Monday January 23, 2023 @11:08AM (#34490573)
You said models not model here, so you acknowledge there isn’t a single universal definition.

I’ve seen some truly bizarre definitions of the reals which are internally consistent and include things like the lowest possible number.

Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by syzarian on Monday January 23, 2023 @11:15AM (#34490699)
You don’t know enough set theory and model theory. Of course there are different models of the real numbers. There are non isomorphic models of the first 4 axioms of Euclidean geometry even. A given set of axioms can have lots of different models.

The widely accepted first order axioms of the natural numbers have nonstandard models. Of course each such model has an isomorphic initial segment. There are two things going on. There is the set of axioms and there are models for those axioms. I think in your usage: “define real number” corresponds to “give the axioms for the real numbers”. I’m not sure though.

Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by Retric on Monday January 23, 2023 @11:38AM (#34491105)
Non standard models of arithmetic really takes me back. Anyway, axiom is the common terminology though I recall a rather long rant that postulate is better once you start talking about multiple incompatible systems.
Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by messe on Monday January 23, 2023 @12:34PM (#34492062)
Please consider that the poster telling you that you do not know enough to comment intelligently about this topic may be correct.

> Anyway, axiom/models is the common terminology though I recall a rather long rant that postulate is better once you start talking about multiple incompatible systems.

Model has a very specific definition in this area of mathematics. This sentence is nonsense.

Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by Retric on Monday January 23, 2023 @01:54PM (#34493229)
I am describing an actual event with that sentence. Are you suggesting that someone can’t rant about such things?
Re:An intutive counterexample to the axiom of choice by pdonis on Monday January 23, 2023 @11:18AM (#34490737)
> Infinity is not a number.

It's not a real number, true. But that has no bearing at all on the validity of f(x) = x + 1, since that function is well-defined with both its domain and its range as all real numbers and no others. You don't need infinity to be a number to define that function.