This description alsp applies to mining toxic substances by hand and high-end prostitution.
The artisan cobalt-mining by hand is relatively popular, and kills you withing 10 years. It is not difficult to explot desperate people. I dont think we should be whitewashing it
If OpenAI had to pay more, they would have gone with another option. It's challenging to work across time zones, across cultures, across language barriers. Working with folks in Reno, NV or somewhere in the southern states of the US would have been the choice for OpenAI at a much higher price.
It's a competitive world. On the surface the Sama founder knew that and realized the options were higher wages for these folks in Africa, or none. The choice of even higher wasn't actually on the table.
In 2000~s rating agencies rated subprime mortgages as AAA-bonds, causing the global financial crisis. If they rated the bonds as junk, the banks would go to another rating agency. Its a competitive world.
Therefore defrauding all of us was the right thing to do?
Just because the problem is inherent in the system and you individually can't change it, does not mean you cannot acknowledge the system's fault's.
Competition driving costs down is viewed by many as a good thing. Many people view the higher wages the folks in this case got v their other opportunities as an opportunity, not as them being exploited. Capitalism is a system which some might not agree with, but pretending it's an agreed upon problem is wrong. Pretending low prices is an agreed upon problem is wrong. Many countries have explicitly chosen a capitalist system (competitive, market model where costs and prices are driven down) and have legislation and agencies devoted to protecting the system. Those countries aren't run by dictators.
Where did you learn that? I don't think it's at all true. It seems maybe you have a no-true-scotsman definition of 'exploited', so that no evidence against your claim would change your mind.
Picture a baker, who makes bread for people, who get bread, the baker gets money. Where is the necessary exploitation? I can't imagine where your confidence - "no exceptions" comes from. There are no win-win exchanges in the world, and none even possible? I'm not a huge fan of capitalism but that seems absurd.
Another way to describe business is that all business is about ripping someone off without pissing them off (and ideally making them happy). Middlemen who make their profit off margins are the most obvious example, but as I said this applies to all forms of business.
I reiterate: All business is about exploiting someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions.
All business is about taking advantage of someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions.
The baker is taking advantage of his customers' need/want for bread. The customers are taking advantage of the baker's need/want for money.
Businesses are organisations designed to systematically “exploit” trade to generate profit - which ends up in the hands of their customers (my tap got fixed), and the employees and owners in the form of money.
Healthy businesses have created all the wealth that exists. Let that sink in! Trade (usually through businesses) is the mechanism that has given us the bounty of modern life.
I also agree that capitalism is a demon we have summoned from beyond the veil that doesn’t truly care about us. Unbridled capitalism will overfish, send children into cobalt mines, and encourage bankers to commit fraud. As the economist says, we need healthy regulation to curb capitalism’s excesses.
But classifying it as entirely evil, or entirely exploitative is too much. If you really feel that way, try living without trading if you like. Sounds like a sure fire way to end up homeless. I wouldn’t last a day.
Business is about exploiting someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions.
Trade is about exploiting someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions.
Put another way, business is about obtaining someone else's time so you don't have to use yours.
You should stop applying pre(mis)conceptions and look at what business is objectively.
If you don’t mean to imply wrongness, then I’m not sure how your point of view is any different from mine. Trade is two people, mutually and consensually getting something they want from each other such that they’re both happier. If the only difference is your use of the word “exploit” but you mean it in a non-moralising way, sounds like we agree.
Business is exploiting someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions. Put another way, business is ripping someone off without pissing them off. Put another way, business is buying and selling time at a price that is acceptable. Ideally, business will culminate in all parties being happy.
If you think business or the act of exploiting something is "evil", or that capitalism is a "demon", that's your problem.
I'm describing business for what it is objectively. Some guy has a surplus of something you need/want, and you try and exploit that fact for your benefit. That is business.
You can die on that hill if you want, but "exploiting someone" has negative connotations in modern colloquial English. If a word doesn't fit what you're trying to communicate, use a different word or you will be misinterpreted.
> exploit (verb): 2. make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand: the company was exploiting a legal loophole. (Oxford Dictionary of English)
>1
>: to make productive use of : UTILIZE
>exploiting your talents
>exploit your opponent's weakness
I would link to the Oxford English Dictionary, but apparently they demand I make an account and/or subscribe so that will have to wait for another day.
You have to go out of your way to associate negative connotations with the word "exploit", so please try again with your premisconceptions.
So your earlier comment should be read as:
> All business is about making productive use of someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions. The only question is whether that productive use is within tolerable limits.
... Except then that second sentence doesn't make sense now. If we take out the word "exploit", what are these "tolerable limits" of productive use you're pointing to? The original sentence read as if staying within "tolerable limits" is important to limit the implied harm we're doing by trading.
It reads like a motte-and-bailey argument[1] to me. Like what you're trying to say is this:
> All business is about exploiting ("1. to make productive use of / UTILIZE") someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions. The only question is whether that exploitation ("2. make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand") is within tolerable limits.
When pushed on why you think business is dangerous you fall back on definition 1 of exploit. But then you lean on definition 2 of "exploit" to imply wrongness - "The only question is whether that productive use is within tolerable limits.". Or as another commenter wrote, "Are [workers] actually happy? Or are they exploited? That's the issue."
The blending together of these definitions feels slippery and underhanded. I don't care what word you use. Do you think trade is good or bad? Healthy or unhealthy for the participants?
[1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/03/all-in-all-another-bri...
Business transactions fundamentally rely on the parties concerned coming to an agreement in order to proceed. If the parties are not in agreement, which is to say the exploitation (aka the terms of the transaction) is not within "tolerable limits", the business transaction cannot proceed.
Therefore, and I reiterate: All business is about exploiting someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions. The only question is whether that exploitation is within tolerable limits.
>When pushed on why you think business is dangerous
I have never said nor implied such a thing.[1][2]
This is absolutely wrong, there is a whole field of economics studying trade and you should read at least about comparative advantage. In healthy economy trade is for mutual benefit.
In fact, most business transactions are mutually beneficial through no particular impetus from the parties: One party gets whatever goods or services he needed/wanted, the other party gets whatever monies he needed/wanted; both parties are hopefully better off and happier than before.
I reiterate: Business is about exploiting someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions.
Given the controversy over the word "exploit", do you mind restating your belief without using the word "exploit" to make sure we all understand what you mean? Is this a fair restating?
> I reiterate: Business is about making productive use of someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions.
Your inability to comprehend plain English is not a controversy nor is it my problem.
Even though most of the time "exploiting an opportunity" is neutral and "exploiting our workers" is either a scam or abuse, I have seen some texts that used the word in the same sense for both cases.
You can say it's OpenAI's duty to make sure all these things don't happen. But they are not there to police the local society. They are there to run their own business. They don't have the competency to make sure corruption does not happen.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34426421 (570 comments)
I think it's clear exploitation when you offer someone employment that adversely impacts their rights. So artisan cobalt-mining is exploitative, because of it's health effects, would go against the UN's definition of "the right to work in just and favourable conditions"[1]. However, I'm not sure what, if any, rights are being compromised by the topic in the article. Maybe there's a case that it's unjust because of the asymmetry in the value created and payment. If there are some rights abuses, then it becomes a clearly exploitative endeavor.
Impossible to know but I expect she would not have stayed out of the Syrian war.
It was she who was largely responsible for the debacle in Lybia
So Karen on using all that power and such a short term thinker
Trump was a catastrophe for you in the USA but not really for us.
Please elect an isolationist....
There's something weirdly racist about the idea that only people in the west (or American diplomats) have any agency in the world. That America somehow is so powerful that y’all created the modern world. That local people and local leaders have no capacity for determining their own future.
That corruption in the police in South Africa is America’s fault. That the problem of gangs in Mexico was created by the US and that the Mexican gang members are blameless when they decapitate people. That Americans were the people who voted in Bolsenaro. Or the west are responsible for Japanese aggression in WW2.
Maybe ending colonial ideas starts at home.
Outsourced factory jobs are the mechanism by which previously poor countries like Taiwan and China (in many ways) have been pulled out of poverty. The process is happening before our eyes in Vietnam right now.
Do you think you’re doing poor people a favour by denying them well paid jobs? Should we do the same in the west, and have companies fire all our poorest employees?
I can hardly think of a more cruel policy.
You aren't understanding the meaning of "exploitation". See the GP.
> both parties walk away happy
Are they actually happy? Or are they exploited? That's the issue.
> You aren't understanding the meaning of "exploitation". See the GP.
My question stands regardless of the meaning of the word "exploitation". I didn't use that word in my question. - Which I note you dodged answering. Who is worse off? Can you point to them?
>> both parties walk away happy
> Are they actually happy? Or are they exploited? That's the issue.
Why are they mutually exclusive? If being exploited isn't something with negative connotations, why can't I be "exploited" and be happy at the same time? If I hire a plumber to fix my leaky sink, who cares what the definition of the word exploited is? He's happy for the work, and I'm happy for my sink being fixed. We all walk away better off.
Was he exploited? Was I? Who cares when its consensual and we're both better off?
This argument about what "exploit" means seems pointless and unrelated to the actual topic - which seems to be, is it moral to hire someone in a poor country to do work for you. My claim is that not sending work to poor countries is often even more cruel - because it keeps people in poverty.
Exploitation is not a pointless issue; it harms many millions, maybe billions of people.
The options are not only A) Exploit people, or B) Don't hire anyone. We can and should hire them in ways that aren't exploitative.