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Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by nerdjon on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:32AM (#34442162)
I mean we (US) already live in a country that doesn't give a shit about reproductive health.

But how many controversies about Google's (and facebooks) data collection is it going to take until we (developers, government, etc) take this seriously.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by andrei_says_ on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:39AM (#34442252)
> I mean we (US) already live in a country that doesn't give a shit about reproductive health.

I hear your disappointment but disagree with the cynicism.

Until very recently the U.S. had federal laws in place to protect reproductive health choices.

The country experienced an extraordinary attack on its democratic institutions, placing religious fundamentalists in the Supreme Court. A result of carefully orchestrated decades long effort.

The country cares, but a few ultra determined parties care more.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by nerdjon on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:42AM (#34442310)
I guess that is true, it just makes it really hard to be hopeful that things are not going downhill in multiple ways due to exactly what you said happening.

My point more is here, given what happened I am not convinced that this is enough to put up enough controversy to make the government take the necessary action.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by colechristensen on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:53AM (#34442508)
>The country cares, but a few ultra determined parties care more.

The sooner people realize that the "ultra determined" don't actually care about the issue, the better. They care about acquiring power. Pushing on abortion was a good way to get people riled up to vote for them. The people doing the pushing were using it as a tool to manipulate voters, they do not actually care. A lot of people have been made to care, of course, but the people pulling the strings do not. Any issue that can get people passionate will be used this way.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by snikeris on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:42PM (#34443149)
Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by dsfyu404ed on Thursday January 19, 2023 @01:04PM (#34443430)
> Pushing on abortion was a good way to get people riled up to vote for them

But why? Why did they have an audience? Why did peddling abortion restrictions cause people to vote for them?

I'll tell you why. Because we intentionally gave them an citizenry equipped with the kinds of beliefs and moral compasses with which those sorts of arguments resonate. We spent decades raising people to think that human life is infinity valuable and that even the risk of harm is tantamount to blood in the streets. We have been raising people to err on the side of restricting people's freedom in order to prevent harm, both real harm and the statistical hypothetical small harm. We have done this on purpose so that people become outraged when they hear that some employer's machinery does not conform to the latest safety standards. We have done this so that people shun people who engage in slightly dangerous behavior. Of course, everything has tradeoffs and as a side effect of this we have created a society of people who are happy to err on the side of the fetus to the detriment of the mother's bodily autonomy and vote accordingly.

In short, we are reaping exactly what we sowed.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by mrguyorama on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:06PM (#34444934)
Bullshit, seriously what are you smoking? Nobody is doing this because of nanny state anything. Anti-abortion activists are the same people who scream against nanny state crap. The people who voted for Trump, and in turn the new Justices are the people who say that safety is for pussies.

The reason why anti-abortion rhetoric lands with conservative voters is that american christians have spent decades telling each other that abortion is murder. These christians see any diversion from a christian theocracy by the rest of the nation as a direct affront to them personally, and largely their power and status as top dog traditionally. They refuse to accept that other people having rights does not prevent them from practicing their religion or avoiding abortion. These people actively fight the concept of religious freedom. They claim an alternate history where the US is not only a religion based nation, but a modern southern christian one. They claim that because their religion tells them abortion is forbidden, that they should be allowed to push that religious belief onto people who don't even believe in their god.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by landemva on Thursday January 19, 2023 @08:42PM (#34448173)
> people shun people who engage in slightly dangerous behavior.

I have not noticed this. Risky behavior now has challenges on tiktok. Heroin is popular again.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by Levitz on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:58AM (#34442571)
I'll precede this by stating that I'm all for abortion. I'm European and the only problem I have with abortion in my country is that it's a law rather than being coded into the constitution.

That said, the way it worked in the US never made sense to me. The idea of establishing trimesters from a Supreme Court decision seems contrived to say the least, not to mention the way the relationship to the constitution was drawn.

It further baffles me how many people seem to act as if what SCOTUS did was a ban on abortion. States are free to choose, so if the country actually does care it ought to show in the ballot box.

Abortion is only illegal in 5 states of the European Union (Malta, Vatican City, Liechtenstein, Andorra, and Poland) and yet I would oppose a European law establishing the right to abortion on all of its members. It's for them to decide.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by PuppyTailWags on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:14PM (#34442792)
Please let me educate you, as a European, why the supreme court decision acts as a functional ban on abortion for millions of americans.

Firstly, multiple states have been preparing for the overturning of Roe v Wade, the court case which specified the right to an abortion was privacy and therefore protected. There are multiple decades-old laws on the books that says if Roe v Wade is overturned abortion is automatically outlawed in the entire state. There's no ballot-box here.

Secondly, the Supreme Court has washed its hands of multiple institutions that would allow people to vote in politicians other than politicians already in power in their respective states. The Supreme Court has struck down or otherwise narrowed national mandates curtailing racist voting policies. The Supreme Court has outright stated they will now refuse to take up any more cases about gerrymandering, which is a process where politicians get to choose who votes for them basically. This enforces that pro-choice people will always be split up into districts where anti-abortionists are the majority.

The first point creates non-democratic law activation that bans abortion, followed by curtailing the ability for people to vote against this implementation even if they are, in aggregate, the majority of the state.

Now, it's also important to follow on the third point: the united states of america is a giant country. By land mass it is larger than the entire EU. A single state will dwarf multiple countries. This means that even though you have the right to travel to a state that allows abortion, the travel is long and expensive. They will have to fly, pay money for a hotel, and also not work for a week or more.

Overall, this means a severe curtailing of abortion access to millions of people, who are disempowered as a population to participate in democracy.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by pragmar on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:47PM (#34443214)
Civil liberties and democracy are often at odds. Where states that have implemented a ban, it has been done democratically. The fact that it was done in a previous congressional session doesn't change that. Democracy and civil liberties are both great, but in this case it's a "pick one" situation.
Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by PuppyTailWags on Thursday January 19, 2023 @01:05PM (#34443435)
Please read my entire post. Anti-democratic policies are enacted such that the resulting government isn't representative of the people.
Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by Levitz on Thursday January 19, 2023 @07:00PM (#34447407)
>Firstly, multiple states have been preparing for the overturning of Roe v Wade, the court case which specified the right to an abortion was privacy and therefore protected. There are multiple decades-old laws on the books that says if Roe v Wade is overturned abortion is automatically outlawed in the entire state. There's no ballot-box here.

That's precisely the ballot-box. Elected officials did that.

>The Supreme Court has outright stated they will now refuse to take up any more cases about gerrymandering, which is a process where politicians get to choose who votes for them basically.

I'm sorry but gerrymandering is orders of magnitude more complex than this. There is not even a widely agreed upon position on what would constitute fair voting districts.

If you truly believe the country simply isn't democratic then its problems are simply so large in comparison I can't imagine caring about abortion at all. The truth of the matter, I believe, is that the national divide on abortion simply isn't solved yet, SCOTUS delayed it, but even after being established as legal in the entirety of the US for a long while a good bunch of US citizens still don't agree with the legality of the practice.

"Only" about 6 in 10 US citizens are pro-choice.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/07/15/key-facts-a...

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by bee_rider on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:29PM (#34442988)
Many Americans see our country as more like a single country than an EU style coalition. We’re for example expected to send money to support some of the less successful states under the justification that we can’t leave our countrymen behind. We get dragged into wars because our countrymen feel like going on an adventure.

So we also expect things like human rights to be somewhat consistent. But we seem to be on a waning trend as far as national unity goes.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by medler on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:21PM (#34442888)
Democracy is great but it’s not enough. You need some mechanism to prevent to majority from stripping away rights from everyone else. For example, in the US it is illegal for any state to permit slavery, and this prevents individual states from legalizing slavery, which IMO is a good thing. Until recently, the right to abortion was guaranteed by the right to privacy implicit in the constitution.

except in certain cases

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by indymike on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:36PM (#34445266)
> Until recently, the right to abortion was guaranteed by the right to privacy implicit in the constitution.

tldr; Something created by court opinion can be ended by court opinion

Abortion was guaranteed by a decision of the Supreme Court, which was based on the majority of the court's opinion of what the Constitution says. As the makeup of the court changes, it's opinion of what the Constitution says changes. Without a Federal law or even more powerfuly, an amendment to the Constitution, abortion is left to the states and subject to 50 different constitutions, courts and legislatures. That there has not been law or amendment says that there is not a strong enough majority or super majority of Americans that want that right guaranteed by the Constitution.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by Akronymus on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:11PM (#34444986)
My personal gripe, as a european, with how I see abortion discussion from the US is that many seem to argue for 2nd/3rd trimester abortions for any/no reason.

And with overturning ROE, I saw it more as forcing the issue to be actually resolved, rather than having a, IMO, wrongful precedent. Aka, it"s a state issue, until it is codified into federal law.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by godelski on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:31PM (#34443024)
I think the parent's comment is less specifically about abortion and more specifically about developers being concerned with building anti-privacy tools that are used in a myriad of concerning things, where abortion is just one of many. So I think your comment is missing the parent's point.
Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by orangecat on Thursday January 19, 2023 @01:51PM (#34443996)
Roughly half of US voters disagreed with Roe/Casey. It's not an "attack on democratic institutions" that they were able to elect politicians who shared their views; that's how democracy works.

I agree that women's reproductive choices should not be subject to control by 50.1% of voters. The problem in this case is too much democracy, not too little.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by throwitawayfam on Thursday January 19, 2023 @02:18PM (#34444361)
> Roughly half of US voters disagreed with Roe/Casey.

Citation needed.

2/3rds of US voters did not support overturning Roe. [1]

[1] https://maristpoll.marist.edu/polls/npr-pbs-newshour-marist-...

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by indymike on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:37PM (#34445277)
He's talking about when the court decided Roe.
Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by gkc3 on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:42AM (#34442314)
how is this related to health
Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by nerdjon on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:46AM (#34442386)
"reproductive health"

Being able to get "abortion pills" is very much part of proper reproductive healthcare

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by gkc3 on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:50AM (#34442462)
How is it part of healthcare if nobody's health is threatened in 99% of cases? Do you consider steroids healthcare? What about something like plastic surgery?
Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by mikedelago on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:26PM (#34442953)
Steroids are healthcare, and they are legitimately used for treatment of ailments.

Plastic Surgery is healthcare, as it can help treat mental disorders affected by body dysmorphia. Additionally, plastic surgery is much, much more common than you think and not always done for vanity. Even if it was, that's the individual's choice to have the procedure performed.

Do you have a source on that 99%? Most sources I'm seeing from a quick google search state that pregnancy is objectively dangerous for people that can get pregnant in many cases, much more than 1%

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by throwaway17532 on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:14PM (#34442799)
Because being pregnant is actually pretty dangerous for women. It can be especially dangerous if you're in your mid-30's or older. And it's also really dangerous if you're not planning to become pregnant because babies remove essential nutrients from your body. Don't get me started on the risk of eclampsia, gestational diabetes, and post-partum depression. Babies also modify your immune system and may make you more susceptible to diseases. Delivery can be very risky too depending on the shape of your body, and some women have to undergo physically altering surgeries to deliver. Miscarriages can also kill women by causing them to bleed to death really quickly.

I think it's important to allow women to make decisions about pregnancy based on their perceived risk, rather than blithely dismissing the morning after pill as being akin to steroids.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by Volundr on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:09PM (#34442730)
> How is it part of healthcare if nobody's health is threatened in 99% of cases?

Far more than 1% of pregnancies carry health risks. Not only that women denied abortions are more likely to have complications during their pregnancy.

> Do you consider steroids healthcare?

Do you not? I've been given steroids for allergies, rashes, and muscle injuries.

> What about something like plastic surgery?

How is surgery anything but healthcare?

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by fknorangesite on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:53PM (#34443298)
> Far more than 1% of pregnancies carry health risks.

Indeed; I'd put it at about 100%. Pregnancy is no joke.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by anigbrowl on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:37PM (#34443088)
Please don't be a sealion. If you don't agree with other views on the issue, just say so. But interrogating people is just annoying.
Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by nerdjon on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:04PM (#34442673)
Not hurt? What are you talking about.

Being forced to carry a pregnancy to term can cause bodily issues, psychological, and financial issues.

Or you know... just let a woman choose what they want to do with their body?

Plastic surgery is perfectly legal and you are fine to do it.

Steroids have shown averse and life threatening affects and really should only be prescribed.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by mikedelago on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:30PM (#34443008)
Might be good to note as well that steroids are commonly prescribed for all kinds of ailments that people have, they're objectively healthcare as well.
Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by nerdjon on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:58PM (#34443345)
Honestly that is one of those things that I did not know until recently.

Like I figured there was a legitimate reason they were prescribed, but I never actually knew first hand about. Now... my cats a small dose of steroids. The examples of people in this thread have been enlightening on that subject.

But unfortunately they do have a bad reputation. I mean if you hear steroids there is likely one image that comes to mind.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by gkc3 on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:22PM (#34442900)
They are all similar in that they are disrupting natural bodily processes. I wouldn't call it "healthcare" when they are opposing the body. It is not very healthy for the baby in the womb.
Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by mikedelago on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:35PM (#34443054)
"natural bodily processes" are disrupted all the time for the benefit of the individual.

I'd be interested in some scholarly sources regarding the efficacy of the information you're describing.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by shadowgovt on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:51PM (#34445429)
This. A remarkable amount of medical intervention is to externally moderate natural bodily processes that, if allowed to run to their conclusion, would disrupt the body to the point of destruction.

There's nothing special and privileged about "natural" processes; if there were we wouldn't need medicine at all.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by fknorangesite on Thursday January 19, 2023 @01:42PM (#34443872)
> I wouldn't call it "healthcare" when they are opposing the body.

Come back and re-read this sentence if you ever get cancer.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by 33955985 on Thursday January 19, 2023 @02:20PM (#34444386)
> It is not very healthy for the baby in the womb.

Sucks to be a parasite I guess

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by midoridensha on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:55PM (#34449421)
When you're diagnosed with an easily-treated cancer, be sure to not be a hypocrite and refuse medical treatment for it, because that would be disrupting natural bodily processes.
Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by PuppyTailWags on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:16PM (#34442827)
I consider steroids healthcare. They're used for rashes, chronic pain, low-testosterone treatment or testosterone hormone replacement.
Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by ablob on Thursday January 19, 2023 @01:31PM (#34443731)
Plastic surgery can save you if you have severe burn wounds or deformations that came out of an accident. So yes, plastic surgery is health care. Did you have other things in mind when listening these things?

Furthermore, 1% "health threat" is quite high of a percentage, don't you think?

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by decremental on Thursday January 19, 2023 @02:09PM (#34444256)
Reproduction happens before abortion. I know "free murder of your kid" doesn't have the same ring to it but you can avoid confusion if you ditch the euphemisms, which only exist in the first place to keep you from thinking rationally.
Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by nerdjon on Thursday January 19, 2023 @02:29PM (#34444500)
Oh so I guess we shouldn't consider vitamins and making sure the baby is fine reproductive health? The entire process falls under "reproductive health". Considering the process is very much still going on until that baby comes out... one way or another.

It is deeply depressing seeing comments like this on HN. But at least I feel better seeing the reaction.

Re:Online pharmacies selling abortion pills send fingerprint... by decremental on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:38PM (#34445287)
I find it deeply depressing that people kill babies and that other people defend it. Different values.