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Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by dahfizz on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @01:15PM (#34430563)
Once you've taken VC money, its growth at all costs. Where "growth" is defined by inflating valuation, not necessarily "real" growth of the company.

If you want to be frugal and grow responsibly, you have to do it without VC money.

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by gnicholas on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @01:28PM (#34430761)
So is this something PG wrote before YC was so deep in the VC ecosystem, and that's why it makes sense for him to have said? What would he have advised a startup to do back then, after raising a $2M round? Would he have told them to keep their burn rate low enough to stay default-alive?

What would he say now?

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by waprin on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @02:33PM (#34431776)
If you compare the pg essays from 2000-2010 to 2010-now, there's a very noticeable shift in tone on this exact topic, even moreso if you zoom out of pg and consider YC messaging then and now.

Tons of old pg essays sound straight from something like Indie Hackers or Microconf with their "avoid raising VC money" angle. He even literally predicts the death of VC in web SaaS, saying "investors aren't worth the trouble": http://www.paulgraham.com/divergence.html .

His YC cofounder Jessica Livingston wrote a book "Founders at Work" and about half the founders in the book are bootstrappers (DHH, Joel Spolosky, Craigslist). The other half are mostly founders recounting horror stories of interacting with VCs.

Compare that to modern YC where there are videos where they say _everyone_ should consider applying to YC with the _only_ exception being people that want to bootstrap. Modern Startup School says: "Without startup funding the vast majority of startups will die." (https://www.ycombinator.com/library/4A-a-guide-to-seed-fundr...).

There's something very important to note which is that YC did not change the deal from 125k for 7% to 500k for 7%. It's still 125k for 7% plus 375k worth of equity on your next raise. Which only makes sense if there is a next raise. So obviously they discourage bootstrapping since their whole model has been built around you raising at least one more round after YC.

Seems a pretty simple case of "follow the incentives." YC basically became more of a traditional VC over time. And I think pg was still closer to a founder in the early 2000s, from a founder perspective, it's more of a set of tradeoffs whether you should bootstrap or seek VC. But from a VC's perspective, obviously they want you to seek VC since they can't get involved if you bootstrap and bootstrapped startups won't get the outsized returns they need.

My opinion is, pg is a smart guy, there's still a ton of wisdom to learn from in his essays, but as with every other person on the planet, consider their motivation and incentives for telling you what they're telling you.

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by dasil003 on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @02:53PM (#34432080)
Also worth noting the 14 year tech bull run and ever increasing amounts of capital looking for a return. In 2000-2010 it was in many ways easier to bootstrap as everything was smaller, complexity was less with simpler browsers and no smart phones, UX expectations were less, and salaries for software engineers were more in line with average professional salaries.

Not that I disagree with your assessment on pg's incentives and YC's change in position over time, but the environment for software startups is also materially different now that affect you whether you take VC money or not.

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by waprin on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @03:00PM (#34432186)
I'd argue the exact opposite.

Key costs like hosting are way cheaper, back then you probably had to rack server in a data center, now you can deploy a free/cheap PaaS with a free/cheap database while you find PMF.

Marketing is way cheaper, social media is a grind but it's a game you can play to acquire users/customers for _free_.

There's more stuff going on online, more people, more businesses, more everything. Think about the entire "creator economy", other bootstrappers, Shopify sites, etc.

Yeah some stuff has gotten harder, more platforms, higher UX standards. But on the whole I'd rather bootstrap in 2023 then 2010.

Check in with me in a year though.

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by logifail on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @03:28PM (#34432590)
> Key costs like hosting are way cheaper, back then you probably had to rack server in a data center, now you can deploy a free/cheap PaaS with a free/cheap database while you find PMF.

Back in the day I have delivered several different cheap 1U rackmount servers to data centres. Once took one - using public transport - to whatever suitable spot in the Docklands in East London. Travelling on the DLR with a server under one arm was a a memorable experience.

Long story short: you can do a lot from a $1000 server, if you put your mind to it.

Yet these days it seems PaaS is better, (over-)paying GCP/AWS/Azure, while you grope around to find a product that will sell for $$$ before your cloud credits run out?

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by bluedino on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @04:17PM (#34433196)
Back in 2009 I had a dedicated server for $89/month

It wasn't the greatest thing in the world, but it was dual-core, 2GB RAM, 160GB HD. I ran a small forum, email server, and a couple buddies used it for shells and running whatever PHP apps they wanted.

An $80 Linode these days only has 16GB and 320GB.

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by kjksf on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @06:15PM (#34434512)
A better comparison is something like Hetzner dedicated server.

Here's what you can get for $89+: https://www.hetzner.com/sb?price_from=89

For 92 euro: 128 GB RAM, 3 TB SSD, 8 core i9-9900K, unlimited bandwidth.

You get 50x value for the 2009 price.

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @09:52PM (#34436167)
you don't get 50x value, you have to do more to stay competitive.

If in 2009 you served 480p videos that was fine, now you have to serve 4k or you will look like a tool. Various grumbling about JS bloat is optional.

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by serf on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @06:40PM (#34434747)
>Marketing is way cheaper, social media is a grind but it's a game you can play to acquire users/customers for _free_.

free marketing through effort is by no means a new concept.

( and it's not free. )

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by dougSF70 on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @07:13PM (#34435018)
Does the current VC model only work in a bull run driven by cheap money? One the one hand cheap money driving growth of unprofitable startups subsidizing a market and on the other hand cheap money is ready to acquire these firms and /or invest in them once they IPO...but this only works if money remains cheap and in plentiful supply.
Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by FlyingSnake on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @03:13PM (#34432376)
I wish this comment was on the top level comment in this thread. The divergence of pg from his original message is really sad. The more you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back into you.
Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by dopeboy on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @04:38PM (#34433480)
This is an excellent point. I'm with you - I still trust his advice if not for his judgement for the fact that the sample population of startups he's worked with is so high.

But this bias is there. I'd wager if YC started HN today, it wouldn't be called HN. That name is uniquely related to the times YC & PG came into.

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by serf on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @06:39PM (#34434735)
I think you're right, but I think it's unsurprising.

It's a bit like trusting an insurance broker's opinion on your own personal insurance necessity -- it'd be unsurprising to me for a broker to tell me that I need the most comprehensive (expensive) plan that they sell.

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by artemonster on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @01:35PM (#34430874)
Sounds like a pyramid with extra steps
Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by bloodyplonker22 on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @02:47PM (#34431992)
To a cynical curmudgeon, it is a pyramid scheme for 100% of startups. To normal people, it is a pyramid scheme when you have a company like Theranos, which represents a very small percentage of dishonest founders in technology, overall.
Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by longcrab on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @02:57PM (#34432136)
A ziggurat?
Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by artemonster on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @04:30PM (#34433387)
We NEED more of those
Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by fakedang on Friday January 27, 2023 @05:33AM (#34544580)
Summon more Ziggurats
Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @01:43PM (#34430984)
> its growth at all costs

If you’ve taken VC, you had a bad VC. Otherwise, this misconstrues most VCs’ advice in a downturn, which is to prioritise staying alive.

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by TAForObvReasons on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @02:10PM (#34431419)
The key phrase is "in a downturn". When it is not a downturn, VCs encourage startups to grow at all costs. And it's extremely difficult to change course. VCs can change advice overnight but companies don't have that flexibility
Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @02:29PM (#34431709)
> When it is not a downturn, VCs encourage startups to grow at all costs

The defining difference between a startup and small business is scaling potential. If you can’t grow, you shouldn’t take VC.

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by TAForObvReasons on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @02:42PM (#34431936)
Bootstrapped small businesses can have the same scaling potential as startups. They just value sustainable growth over business fragility. It seems foolish during summers but that mentality allows bootstrapped businesses to survive winters in a way that startups can't.
Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @03:32PM (#34432652)
> small businesses can have the same scaling potential as startups

Usually not. Most small businesses have geographic limits to their scaling potential. That said, yes, there are niches where small businesses will beat a start-up competitor, at least in the short run.

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by codegeek on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @03:24PM (#34432520)
I think you are missing the bigger point. VC money puts pressure to grow at any cost and very quickly. That takes away the freedom founders/teams could have to do a few things at a different pace and more sustainably which can still lead to scaling. VC = fast or die. No middle ground. But there are ways to scale even without that level of pressure but VC doesn't allow that.
Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @03:29PM (#34432602)
> VC = fast or die. No middle ground

VC is expensive capital. The same dilemma exists for companies that issue high-yield debt.

> there are ways to scale even without that level of pressure but VC doesn't allow that

Genuine question: what is this?

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by codegeek on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @03:41PM (#34432771)
"Genuine question: what is this?"

More time. There are examples of bootstrapped businesses that may be took a decade to get to first few million which will be dead in VC terms. But they continued and got to 100s of Millions. VC model would tell them to kill it if after a decade, they were doing a lousy couple million in revenue even if on the right path with PMF.

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @04:14PM (#34433173)
> bootstrapped businesses that may be took a decade to get to first few million which will be dead in VC terms

Isn't the criticism of the last decade of VC that it backed many of these?

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by pjerem on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @05:07PM (#34433817)
It happened last year to my current employer. It also was the 20 years anniversary of the company.

Everything changed and I’ve seen it change from a small agile business with nice people to a baby corporation with up or out mentality, useless processes everywhere, harassment methods from HR department. In one year, VC money created as many millionaires as employee burn-outs.

Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by codegeek on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:07PM (#34444943)
I don't think any VC would back a startup to get to 2M in 10 years. They may do it as a nice gesture if they were failing anyway but no VC would want that outcome after a decade. One example: Gumroad. The investors were nice to let the founder keep going while they let him buy them out for like $1 or something. Today Gumroad is much bigger and decently successful company. Mailchimp was bootstrapped for many years with a service component. If they had raised VC money, they would have been forced to pivot or die early.
Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by efficax on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @02:40PM (#34431883)
sometimes this is true but not always, there are smart and patient vcs who trust their founders
Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by auggierose on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @03:40PM (#34432755)
Maybe that's what the VCs want, but you don't have to do what they say. It is your company, after all.
Re:Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) by gnicholas on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @03:46PM (#34432842)
That's an interesting question. If you are dead set on being frugal and don't need help from your investors (in the form of introductions, etc.), then you could draw a line in the sand and refuse to cross it.

If things don't go well, it would probably be hard to raise money for a future startup, due to the reputational damage of not having followed the VC playbook.

If things go fine, the VCs would probably say you could have grown even faster by spending faster. And what's considered a 'fine' outcome for you (selling for $15M with 1/3 for you) is not considered 'fine' for a VC whose model requires bigger wins — even if they take much longer.