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Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by AdmiralAsshat on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @02:58PM (#34417900)
It has zero chance of passing the Senate or getting signed into law. All it does is reinforce the perception that Republicans have nothing but contempt for the American worker.

The federal government encourages remote working, and has for many years. Why? Because the D.C. Beltway is a congested clusterf#!$, and keeping people off the roads who don't absolutely need to be makes the commute better for everyone.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by Someone1234 on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:03PM (#34418017)
Yep.

Better for car pollution, better for urban house prices, better for the cost of gas, better for families/kids, and better for rural communities (as people move out of cities, and take their relatively high salaries/disposable income with them).

It does cause a short term shift as downtown support businesses (e.g. coffee shops, food, etc) have to move closer to where people live. But that is largely a return to what was normal 50 years ago anyway.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by bboygravity on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:08PM (#34418098)
But what about the team leader/manager's egos though?
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by saghm on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:16PM (#34418245)
Good point, discouraging micromanaging and flaunting power is another benefit they didn't list
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by jcpst on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:16PM (#34418239)
Ah yes. That is the one benefit of the SHOW UP act- it does help the ego of managers.
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by toss1 on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:58PM (#34418979)
>> it does help the ego of managers.

...fix the ego of BAD managers

I read some studies from a decade before COVID about remote work, and the upshot was that teams under previously under-performing managers indeed performed worse, but the previously higher-performing teams performed better.

Makes sense because bad managers manage to the signs of work, not work itself - it the but in the chair, not talking to someone else, etc., whereas the good managers manage to their targets and DGAF about the signs.

Send the poor manager's teams remote, and now they not only lack direction on real goals, but now they're also free of being hounded. Send the top managers' teams remote, and they have the same guidance, but less time and effort squandered commuting, less office interruptions, etc, and they improve.

Considering the studies and recent experience, I'd almost consider it a test of a manager's skill - if they cannot manage a remote team productively, they cannot manage a local one.

(Of course meanwhile, the right wing has gone fully into abusive leader attitude over any facts, and so squanders Congress' time with nonsense like this. Ugh)

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by bobulous on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:15PM (#34418213)
remote work is great but moving to a rural area or suburb is not better for the environment
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by atonse on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:30PM (#34418454)
Is that as cut and dry? Me living in a suburb is only "far away" if I have to commute somewhere far away daily.

But if I barely drive ever, and work entirely remote, is it so bad to live in a suburb? Genuinely wondering.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by mjmahone17 on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:49PM (#34418812)
It’s not so bad if you are in fact walking most places and spending less time in a car. True it’s better than commuting somewhere far, but if you compare to living without a car in an urban core, it’s unlikely your footprint is smaller. Especially if you now live in a 3,500 square foot detached single story home that consumes a lot of heating energy, whereas in a city you’d have say 1,500 square feet with two shared walls and a shared ceiling/floor (basically you have a larger footprint based on insulation and exposed surface area).

The problem is most US towns and suburbs are not set up to be core walkable, dense places, where you don’t even need a car to get home. There are exceptions (I can think of some Hudson Valley towns on train stations, where their core has mixed use multi-story attached housing), but that’s not the norm and is generally discouraged via zoning.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by atonse on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:22PM (#34419387)
Totally true. And as I think about this more, I'm not thinking enough about other impacts of that sprawl: Sure, I'm not driving as much, but that's because I'm getting a lot of things delivered to me, so SOMEONE is driving around a lot on my behalf (and I'm having to pay for it too).

Although with package deliveries, the impact is amortized by all the packages so the impact is probably less than if I had driven to the store, this isn't true of grocery and food deliveries. Those are about as inefficient as would be if I did that driving myself.

The approach of thinking about suburbs/city/etc will all have to account for the new hybrid lifestyle of remote work now – where people are living in remote areas but still not driving that much either.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by yamtaddle on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:25PM (#34419436)
Goods have to be shipped farther to reach you. You have to drive more than you might if you lived in a dense city (or dense town, but the US doesn't really have such a thing—hell we barely even have dense cities, really) even without the commute. You require far more installed and maintained pavement to maintain your quality of life. Utility runs are longer, so, more ongoing maintenance costs, which means more fuel use and more use of materials (so, also more fuel, ultimately). And so on.

Less-dense housing strongly tends to be less-green than denser housing, commute or no commute. The differences are extreme enough that yeah, it's pretty close to being that cut and dry.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by Someone1234 on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:17PM (#34418270)
Wasn't something that was claimed. Reducing driving in better for the environment.
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by vkou on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:54PM (#34418908)
It depends. Most people commuting to the office aren't living in a high-density downtown, anyways - they are trading a suburban home in the outskirts of the metro for a suburban home further out in the metro. The carbon footprint of the home is similar, the carbon footprint of their car will probably go down, as they only need to drive to the store/school/for social visits, as opposed to that, plus to work.
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by luckylion on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:09PM (#34418100)
Worse for rural house prices though, right?
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by sgt101 on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:10PM (#34418128)
There's a lot of rural out there..
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by danaris on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @10:29PM (#34423113)
Noting that I fully support remote work...

Your last point does have a pretty big caveat, in that widespread strict residential zoning outright prohibits almost every kind of useful support business from setting up shop close enough to where many people live (that is, in the suburbs).

The answer to this, of course, is "so let's get rid of that hopelessly strict zoning, which is bad for a host of other reasons, too", not "so remote work is still the problem".

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by analog31 on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:10PM (#34418142)
I think it's pitting worker vs worker. The "base" perceives govt workers as different from themselves. Divide and conquer.
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by Loughla on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:40PM (#34418646)
Bingo. Federal employees are part of the 'deep state' at worst, and bureaucratic bloat at best. They are part of the 'other' to the republican base.

My experience in flyover republican country is that anything that makes a government agency worse, or makes a government worker less happy is good, because it can help bolster the private industry alternative (but complaining about the private alternatives, or wait times at government buildings is perfectly okay).

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by ryandrake on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:20PM (#34419361)
> My experience in flyover republican country is that anything that makes a government agency worse, or makes a government worker less happy is good, because it can help bolster the private industry alternative

And that's at best! For many, the cruelty of making their perceived opponent less happy (without any benefit to oneself) is sufficient motivation for them to support policy. Policy as a tool to "hurt people"[1].

1: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/8/18173678/tr...

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by kansface on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:52PM (#34419874)
The better solution would be to locate government agencies in red states so they are staffed with representative employees who are at least theoretically sympathetic to their values. Those agencies would cease to be a perennial target for sabotage because no one wants to legislate away X jobs from their state. I would go so far as to allow any federal employee to be allowed to legally work in any State … which feels quite American to me. After all, why should any State or district be elevated above its peers in regards to governance of the whole?
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by analog31 on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @10:20PM (#34423061)
Some of this is already done. For one thing, it's a way to spread funding around. I have a friend who was a higher-up at a Federal agency that had its offices in Ohio. There are state colleges and universities all over the place, and public school teachers are government employees. Hospitals get a lot of public funding. And of course, military facilities.

Possibly part of the envy is the disparity in wage visibility. Nobody knows how much people make in the private sector, whereas government salaries are a matter of public record, and can seem high relative to a sub-living-wage job, while also having "cadillac" benefits, reasonable job security, and comfortable working conditions.

I've read (and probably seen) that there are large regions of the Midwest where the only towns with any appreciable prosperity either have a college or a hospital, or both.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by onlyrealcuzzo on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:10PM (#34418145)
Ironic - since the house only works 146 days per year - so either gets paid to work half the year - or is doing a lot of remote work...
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by ceejayoz on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:32PM (#34418508)
Yes, they're doing a lot of remote-ish work; they go home to their districts. Each has offices (usually several) where they can meet with constituents; it's often the best way to get weird issues with dense organizations like the IRS or Medicare resolved.
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by kmonsen on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:35PM (#34418540)
You have to understand that is different. It's not emir work but rather getting in touch with their constituents.

Sorry if /s and sorry if not. They do have special work which by definition is in two locations.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by jimbob45 on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:06PM (#34419125)
Even worse, many of them don't even show up to vote during their limited days anyway[0]

[0]https://www.propublica.org/article/the-dog-ate-my-vote-how-c...

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by 5555624 on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:26PM (#34418391)
> The federal government encourages remote working, and has for many years

In the D.C. area, that's true. When we were moved out of the area, more than five years ago, one of the first things we were told was that we would not be able to telework as often as we had. When the pandemic it, we went to essentially full-time telework; but, we've been back in the office three or four days a week for a year and a half.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:28PM (#34418440)
> reinforce the perception that Republicans have nothing but contempt for the American worker

Blue-collar workers without the option of working remote may perceive working for home differently than we do. Not saying it's close to correct. Just that the politics of this bill make sense.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by relaunched on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:38PM (#34418616)
That logic suggests that blue-collar workers have contempt for anyone that isn't a blue-collar worker. Is there any evidence to support that?
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by floor2 on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:45PM (#34419776)
There is no such "contempt". You're misunderstanding the world view of middle-America.

Their motivations, however misplaced and due to misunderstandings, are about fairness, justice and functioning government. The simple truth is that, to many Americans, the idea of "working from home" means "not really working".

They believe that people in the office will do real work, whereas those same people at home won't. It's a wrong and harmful worldview, but it's not malicious or coming from a place of contempt. A solid "never attribute to malice ..." moment.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by mrguyorama on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:53PM (#34419898)
At a certain point, someone being willfully ignorant crosses into malice. We live in a world with the internet and a flight to whatever US city you want for $500. If you aren't willing to learn about the world, that's on you. If you aren't able to conceive of the idea that people in different situations might do things different to you, you aren't "ignorant" or "stupid", you are a child who hasn't developed one of the basic parts of your brain.
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @05:07PM (#34420097)
> We live in a world with the internet and a flight to whatever US city you want for $500. If you aren't willing to learn about the world, that's on you.

This is an ironically contemptuous view. One, five hundred dollars isn’t nothing. Two, that doesn’t include lodging, meals, et cetera, all of which make visiting a city prohibitively expensive for many American families.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by lotsofpulp on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @05:22PM (#34420315)
Replace $500 and travel expenses with broadband internet and websites hosting text/audio/images/video content where one can learn about the world.
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @09:47PM (#34422842)
> broadband internet and websites hosting text/audio/images/video content where one can learn about the world

This rarely breeds empathy the way travel (or fiction) does.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by jfengel on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @11:13AM (#34428585)
They receive their overly-negative views of other Americans from media they choose to consume. They could just as easily consume media that presents urban life in a more positive sense, and swear off media that makes a specific point of painting it in a negative way.

It doesn't have to cost anything to learn. One just has to stop deliberately choosing to learn falsehoods.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by rayiner on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:07PM (#34419132)
Ding ding. Oil field workers in North Dakota can’t work remotely; and knowledge workers who can overwhelmingly vote democrat.
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by mrguyorama on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:28PM (#34419488)
And of course, because those oil field workers can't do it, we should make the knowledge worker's lives worse.

Wait no, we shouldn't do that because it's childish and stupid.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by badrabbit on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:26PM (#34418398)
To their voters, they are showing contempt towards federal government employers who are all in their deluded minds lazy because they don't waste time in traffic.
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by GalenErso on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:04PM (#34418037)
The most pressing problem with WFH is national security work, which requires government employees to come on site to work in secure facilities. Think CIA analysts in charge of producing reports on Russian troop movements based on signal intercepts and satellite imagery. IMO these positions should pay more than private sector equivalents (if they exist) and cover all commuting costs, but I don't know to what extent these perks are within the discretion of agencies or Congress.
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by everdrive on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:07PM (#34418083)
This will never, ever happen. The salary scale for federal national security jobs are set by Congress.
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by nunez on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @10:54PM (#34423277)
those jobs were never wfh to begin with.
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by bilsbie on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:49PM (#34418821)
Or save a step and don’t hire them to begin with.
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by null0ranje on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:24PM (#34419415)
It also reduces the amount of commercial office space GSA has to lease/manage.
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by heavyset_go on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:28PM (#34419508)
> All it does is reinforce the perception that Republicans have nothing but contempt for the American worker.

I disagree, they're playing into their base well from a crabs-in-a-bucket mentality perspective.

Much of their base associates remote working with pandemic measures, which they believe were unnecessary and exaggerated. They associate the types of jobs that can be done remotely as jobs belonging to "coastal elites"/liberal tech workers/pampered college grads/government employees who belong to the swamp/etc. Those exist in contrast to the perceived base of "real" workers, whose jobs are likely physical and can't be done remotely, and who feel strongly about pandemic mitigations. Their response to workers who are hesitant to work in-person is that "the pandemic is over, it's time to go back to work", and workers who want to remain remote are painted as lazy, insubordinate and entitled parasites.

In effect, this bill is hurting the "right" people and there are plenty of constituents who want to use the legal system to do just that: stick it to the people they don't like. Taking away privileges from government employees does exactly that.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by pohl on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:34PM (#34419595)
> reinforce the perception that Republicans have nothing but contempt for the American worker.

I disagree...this bill is hurting the "right" people and there are plenty of constituents who want to use the legal system to do just that: stick it to the people they don't like.

This reads to me more like an elaboration on the above rather than a disagreement with it. After all, the "right people" being hurt are, in fact, American workers.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by heavyset_go on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:38PM (#34419661)
My interpretation is that their base will not perceive this as contempt for American workers, but as a boon for "real" workers who don't want to support the laziness of entitled workers who want to work from home. This can be perceived as pro-worker from that perspective.
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by mrguyorama on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:51PM (#34419858)
The base doesn't consider those people "True" americans and don't think they deserve rights.
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by taylodl on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @10:39PM (#34423184)
The base doesn’t consider anybody thinking differently from them as a “true” American and as such are undeserving of rights. Frankly, I’m getting really sick and tired of these people.
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by metacritic12 on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:33PM (#34419570)
This makes a lot more sense. Whenever you have to choose between Theory A: the other side is evil / hateful and Theory B: the other side is optimizing their self-interest (in this case getting elected by their base), Theory B seems to be the more correct and useful one.
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by r00fus on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:35PM (#34419609)
False dichotomy. Why not both?
Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by jorblumesea on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:54PM (#34419908)
Yep, same idea behind many of the tax code changes (SALT deduction), or immigration rhetoric and posture.

It's fine to hurt people, so long as we're hurting the right people.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by throw0101c on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @05:20PM (#34420286)
> crabs-in-a-bucket mentality perspective

Ref:

> Crab mentality, also known as crab theory,[1][2] crabs in a bucket (also barrel, basket, or pot) mentality, or the crab-bucket effect, is a way of thinking best described by the phrase "if I can't have it, neither can you".[3]

> The metaphor is derived from anecdotal claims about the behavior of crabs when they are trapped in a bucket. While any one crab could easily escape,[4] the claim is its efforts will be undermined by others, ensuring the group's collective demise.[5][6][7]

> The analogous theory in human behavior is that members of a group will attempt to reduce the self-confidence of any member who achieves success beyond the others, out of envy, jealousy, resentment, spite, conspiracy, or competitive feelings, to halt their progress.[8][9][10][11] The same claims about behaviour are embodied in the phrase tall poppy syndrome.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

From the §See also:

> He observed a self-interested, family-centric society, which sacrificed the public good for the sake of nepotism and the immediate family. As an American, Banfield was witnessing what was to become infamous as the Southern Italian Mafias and a self-centered clan-system promoting the well-being of their inner group at the expense of the other ones. Banfield postulated that the backwardness of such a society could be explained "largely but not entirely" by "the inability of the villagers to act together for their common good or, indeed, for any end transcending the immediate, material interest of the nuclear family."[1]

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Basis_of_a_Backward_...

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by jorblumesea on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @04:44PM (#34419750)
> All it does is reinforce the perception that Republicans have nothing but contempt for the American worker.

Is this surprising? Seems completely on brand.

Re:Republicans to pass bill in House to end telework for fed... by jfengel on Wednesday January 18, 2023 @11:10AM (#34428518)
Republicans have nothing but contempt for the American worker

The American government worker in particular. They've spent decades repeating Reagan's line: “The top 9 most terrifying words in the English Language are: I'm from the government, and I'm here to help.” Government workers are the enemy, and they want to ensure that they're maximally ineffective so that they can remain the enemy.