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Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by tete on Sunday January 15, 2023 @10:37AM (#34390140)
> Android and ChromiumOS are likely the most trustable computing platforms out there

I talked to a security researcher specializing on Android at a conference and he didn't sound like he'd agree.

While I personally think ChromiumOS does a good job, I think a huge problem is that the issue is in how liberally complexity is added. And complexity is typically where security issues lurk. This has been seen again and again.

It's also why I think projects such as OpenBSD do such a great job. Their main focus seems to be reducing complexity (which they are sometimes are criticized for). A lot of the security seems to come from the reduced attack surface you get. And then the security mechanisms build, which typically are more easily implemented, because of said simplicity are the next layer.

And I think OpenBSD has reached a sweet spot there, where it's not some obscure research OS, but an OS that you can install on your server or desktop, run actual work loads, heck, even play Stardew Valley, or a shooter on, but have all the benefits in terms of security or simplicity that you can from research OSs, Plan 9, etc.

So maybe not mainstream, but mainstream enough to actually work with it. There's sadly many projects that completely ignore reality around them, also because their goal is to simply be research projects and nothing more. Then we have those papers that rarely everyone ever looks at on how in a perfect world all those big security topics could be solved. Unless some big company comes along and puts it into some milestone.

ChromiumOS seems like the limitations you get are similar, probably even more severe than what you get compared to OpenBSD's flexibility. That's something many de-google projects struggle with as well. At the same time the complexity remains a whole lot bigger. Of course goals and target groups are hugely different.

I think both Android and ChromiumOS used to put more emphasis on simplicity, but gave it up at some point. I am not sure why, but would assume that many decisions are simply company decisions. After all the eventual goal is economic growth.

That locking down on mobile devices is not just to increase security, but has the beneficial side effect of controlling the platform. This might not even be directly intended by the security focused developers, but it is a side effect.

So "most trustable" in that scenario comes with "most gate-keeping", "least ownership", etc., which we are kind of used to on smartphones, tablets and Chromebooks. So I think comparing it with other kinds of mainstream OSs isn't really leading to much.

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by solarpunk on Sunday January 15, 2023 @10:56AM (#34390291)
This page has stuck with me since I read it regarding openbsd. It's a bit mean spirited, but I think openbsd mostly benefits from its own obscurity. https://isopenbsdsecu.re/

But the nice parts of ChromeOS, as far as security properties go are the way it can be "power washed" between usages. Along with a desktop Linux system that has less binaries installed at it's base than most. And things that are built in are typically built atop chrome's sandbox.

I used to joke with my friends who ran TAILS Linux that my grandma with her Chromebook had the same threat model.

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by lcall on Sunday January 15, 2023 @02:50PM (#34392591)
No other general-purpose OS that runs on my laptop has the track record of OpenBSD: only 2 remotely exploitable security holes in the default installation since ~1996. And then the other mitigations let you control carefully what more attack surface to expose--those mitigations dramatically reduce it. I appreciate the general lack of privilege escalation 0-day exploits, as seen over time.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by thesuperbigfrog on Sunday January 15, 2023 @04:43PM (#34393823)
Serious question: How big is OpenBSD as a target for malware, exploits, viruses, etc. ?

OpenBSD's track record is impressive but is it a significant target compared to Windows, MacOS, and Linux?

It is easy to say "only two bullets have ever penetrated my armor" when hardly anyone is shooting at you. I do not know if this is the case because I have never used OpenBSD and I do not know how widely it is used (headless servers, embedded devices, etc.).

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by lcall on Monday January 16, 2023 @12:13PM (#34402836)
If that were true you might also expect FreeBSD and NetBSD to have similarly low levels of exploits, and my general impression (not research, just reading around) is that they have had more exploits in that timeframe (privilege escalation bugs, whatever).

You can read more about OBSD's security by going to https://openbsd.org then clicking the "Security" link near the top left.

ps: FreeBSD seems to have more users than OpenBSD, and NetBSD seems to have fewer users than OpenBSD.

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by charcircuit on Sunday January 15, 2023 @07:11PM (#34395129)
On OpenBSD do you even need to compromise the kernel? Can't your normal user account install a backdoored browser, steal your ssh keys, DDOS people, start a VNC server, keylog, etc.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by lcall on Monday January 16, 2023 @12:16PM (#34402876)
I guess that is possible if you try to do so -- compile your own stuff, or download and run it. But if you act normally instead, installing just what you actually need, from the package repository (where most things are "pledged" and "unveiled" which adds some impressive protections), I think the chances are much lower than with other OSes.

Also I separate things by user account, so I don't do my general browsing as the same user that does my programming, which is again separate from bank access, which is separate from .... So the kernel is providing a lot of protections.

(And I usually browse without images and javascript, which is not OS-specific but a suggestion. Many things I use don't require it, and I can flip it on or configure it specifically for those that do.)

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by charcircuit on Sunday January 15, 2023 @04:22PM (#34393559)
OpenBSD doesn't have proper sandboxing. If you download malware it can easily steal and upload your ssh keys.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by jazzyjackson on Sunday January 15, 2023 @04:43PM (#34393832)
> proper sandboxing

Do jails not fulfill this?

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by charcircuit on Sunday January 15, 2023 @05:05PM (#34394072)
OpenBSD doesn't have jails. Jails take effort to setup. It's much easier to just run the malware instead of going through the effort of making a jail for it.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by lcall on Monday January 16, 2023 @12:22PM (#34402969)
It certainly has chroot jails, and many other protections. You might find interesting: https://www.openbsd.org/security.html .
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by lcall on Monday January 16, 2023 @12:23PM (#34402974)
Yes, among other protections that are even more convenient or built in. https://www.openbsd.org/security.html
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by lcall on Monday January 16, 2023 @12:21PM (#34402948)
There is a package repository where many of the packages have been "pledged" and "unveiled", meaning that they execute with fewer unneeded privileges. And a general lack of privilege escalation exploits in base. And privilege separate by running things as distinct users. So jails might be less needed or less helpful by comparison, overall. There are chroot jails though, not sure why anyone would think they are not available in OBSD.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by mhh__ on Sunday January 15, 2023 @11:21PM (#34396764)
Is openbsd not made to look more secure by the fact that it's so niche?

Who gives a shit about it enough to attack it a la (say) Windows?

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by lcall on Monday January 16, 2023 @12:18PM (#34402894)
I replied to a similar question just above, for what it may be worth.