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Re:Windows OS Security by joenathanone on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @08:54AM (#34338448)
Ever since UAC was introduced Windows has been pretty secure. Having provided IT support for over a decade, I went from seeing viruses/worms infect fresh install Windows machines a few minutes after they were connected to the internet, without any user input at all, just a connection to the internet was enough (I'm talking around the XP/2000 days).

Now 99% of infections are from users being tricked and downloading and installing the malware themselves. The biggest help with that has been uBlock origin. The next biggest risk I have encountered is phishing emails and that is 90% user education, filters can only do so much.

Re:Windows OS Security by sandworm101 on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @09:38AM (#34338917)
>> The next biggest risk I have encountered is phishing emails

I describe that threat much differently. I don't blame users. I blame windows for allowing a link clicked in an email to install software, to alter system files, to upload PII to Nigerian servers. Users should not be trusted. Just because a macro in an excel doc inside an email CAN do something clever doesn't mean that windows should allow that to happen so easily.

[dead]
Re:Windows OS Security by hulitu on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @01:48PM (#34342667)
Outlook is not alone. Some email programs also hide the address or headers.
Re:Windows OS Security by luch on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @10:06AM (#34339203)
yep this problem has been solved on Android and iOS where the only place to install software is the App Store.

Windows did try to incite devs to use the windows store but it did not catch on. Restraining third-party installation only from the Store is a good way to remove adwares and co.

Honestly Microsoft did shat the bed with their app store, it has no right to be as difficult to use (both as user and developer) as it is.

Re:Windows OS Security by holbrad on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @10:38AM (#34339621)
One of the big reasons that the Microsoft store failed so hard was the absurd cut Microsoft wanted (30%).

Windows developers were and are already doing app distribution. 30% for something dev's were already doing...

Re:Windows OS Security by kyriakos on Thursday January 12, 2023 @01:05AM (#34349787)
Numerous android apps were found to be doing dodgy things after the fact. Probably ios ones too. It's not foolproof.
Re:Windows OS Security by pletsch on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @12:10PM (#34340990)
Would also like to see block mounting of ISOs by default.
Re:Windows OS Security by AstralStorm on Thursday January 12, 2023 @08:45AM (#34353377)
Windows does what it can with SmartGuard. Users just click through it. You can enforce signed software plus whitelist if you want in a system policy. Just entertain the thought that now you will have to curate a lot of software on the machines.

You can disable execute for download directories too.

These are not the default because it annoys everyone to no end. Likewise installing applications just from Microsoft Store. (Where badness has slipped in too.)

And finally, people still get caught with an MS Office document which will be opened from a download just fine and with a fake website.

Re:Windows OS Security by moepstar on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @08:59AM (#34338500)
> infect fresh install Windows machines a few minutes after they were connected to the internet

yes - because back then, NAT'ing / putting a machine behind a router wasn't commonplace yet.

Re:Windows OS Security by joenathanone on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @09:04AM (#34338563)
That is true and on that point, Windows didn't have an integrated firewall until the XP Service Pack 2 release.
Re:Windows OS Security by sumtechguy on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @09:09AM (#34338628)
The default user being administrator did not help. I would get most of that effect by just adding a second standard user to peoples machines. "use this user for everything but installing things". That cut down on the calls a lot. UAC just put a spot in place for the user to go 'oh im doing something adminy' which helped so much.
Re:Windows OS Security by xattt on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @09:18AM (#34338718)
Back then, a ton of software would complain or not work if it wasn’t running under an account with admin privileges.

UAC forced developers to make the software work no matter what.

Re:Windows OS Security by sumtechguy on Thursday January 12, 2023 @10:17AM (#34354733)
Surprisingly a lot of it was usually just a misplaced registry entry or one with the wrong ACL on it.
Re:Windows OS Security by larsonnn on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @12:44PM (#34341558)
The first we did with UAC was disabling it. Because nobody did care.

So you can throw the best security at users for free. Some dud will disable it because his powershell script is not working anymore.

Re:Windows OS Security by sumtechguy on Thursday January 12, 2023 @10:20AM (#34354781)
People that were technical sometimes did that, or re-enabled administrator, or both. Because it 'got in the way'. But for the vast majority of people UAC worked as it should.
Re:Windows OS Security by noyoudumbdolt on Thursday January 12, 2023 @11:44AM (#34356370)
Almost all the bad things you’re worried about don’t require an elevated token. I’m much more worried about someone stealing my data, installing a trojan, etc. (none of which require elevation) than installing a device driver (which does).

This obsession with not running as root/using UAC is just cargo cult security for single user systems.

Re:Windows OS Security by sumtechguy on Thursday January 12, 2023 @03:51PM (#34360069)
Having seen the horror shows that some people did to their computers. It is much better. Least priv is a decent thing to strive for. You want to reduce the attack surface. By giving people root you basically make the attack surface your entire computer. I am not going to make the trojan writers job easier.

Also as I have gotten older I also realized that I make mistakes too. Running as least privs reduces the fallout to 'i have to restore a few files' from 'i get to reinstall the whole computer again'. UAC/notroot are tools to help you. You can discard them. That is fine. Not going to judge. I am saying most people it helps them. Not that it matters much anymore anyway. Most of the people who did these silly things to their own computers have moved onto tablets.

Re:Windows OS Security by noyoudumbdolt on Friday January 13, 2023 @11:18AM (#34369873)
>I am not going to make the trojan writers job easier.

The Trojan writer now targets systems with UAC, since it’s the default and the vast majority of systems, so you’re not gaining anything. And he never needed an elevated token in the first place.

Re:Windows OS Security by noyoudumbdolt on Friday January 13, 2023 @11:22AM (#34369948)
UAC offers almost no additional security for single user systems. You’re trying to protect your data and passwords and stuff, not the ability to install device drivers.
Re:Windows OS Security by cesarb on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @11:41AM (#34340492)
> yes - because back then, NAT'ing / putting a machine behind a router wasn't commonplace yet.

Back then, even putting the machine behind a firewall (which is what you really meant, since being a router does not necessarily mean it has a firewall enabled) wouldn't have been enough; it was not that uncommon to already have infected machines on the local network (because they had earlier been connected without being behind a firewall).

Re:Windows OS Security by whizzter on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @09:44AM (#34338976)
That might've helped with maybe 30% of the issues, even behind firewalls and w/o UAC you also had all the early IE fault (Let's make ActiveX run x86 code from untrusted sources... facepalm) that let adversaries get an initial foothold on computers.

Regular Windows usage back around y2k was just insecure, compared to then MS has really made strides.

Re:Windows OS Security by neogodless on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @10:18AM (#34339355)
Windows Vista was introduced in January 2007, and was the first version of Windows to include User Account Control (UAC).
Re:Windows OS Security by alexvoda on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @09:48AM (#34339017)
I would argue that UAC is a much more polished solution compared to solutions available on Linux like PolKit and its UIs.

Maybe the reason is that Microsoft was under a lot more pressure to solve this and once solved had a lot more power to enforce the rules on 3rd party software.

Re:Windows OS Security by noyoudumbdolt on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @10:07AM (#34339213)
First, a bit of pedantry: UAC is not a security feature. https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20160816-00/?p=94... . It just works to encourage developers to make their software work without an elevated token. The security feature is Windows administrator accounts running apps with non-elevated tokens by default.

Protecting local administrator tokens is also kind of a useless security feature these days. What are you worried about? Data theft? Ransomware? Trojans? Credentials theft? All of those can be done just fine with only standard user permissions, without an administrator token. OTOH, you need an elevated token to install device drivers or whatever.

Re:Windows OS Security by AstralStorm on Thursday January 12, 2023 @08:53AM (#34353458)
You need an elevated token to inject code into (well written) protected applications as well, and sometimes even that might not be enough.

Generally admins tend to be most worried about central databases or user visible services being compromised. Compromising an user account is a necessary step to get there, often enough.

Re:Windows OS Security by noyoudumbdolt on Thursday January 12, 2023 @11:41AM (#34356320)
>Compromising an user account is a necessary step to get there, often enough.

But whether you have an elevated token or not won’t make a difference in almost all cases.

Re:Windows OS Security by agloeregrets on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @10:42AM (#34339677)
> The next biggest risk I have encountered is phishing emails and that is 90% user education

I would bet that ~90% of all major breaches today are pure user engineering or user error related. Maybe 95%.

Every item on the list means nothing if a CSR (for example) uses the same passwords for their work accounts as they use on sketchy games from the app store or if they leave your hardware unattended. Boom, breach or even installs of spyware on company systems, good luck finding who screwed up. Many companies are guilty of giving way too many people access to way too much data because 'Business said they MUST have access'. And that is before you even consider the number of people who use work emails as if they are personal emails.

Re:Windows OS Security by jmau111 on Thursday January 12, 2023 @08:53AM (#34353464)
> The biggest help with that has been uBlock origin

It seems that browsers and extensions handle a huge part of the global security for users, maybe even more than the OSes.