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Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by dsfyu404ed on Monday January 09, 2023 @11:43AM (#34312356)
>It only takes 80ma across your heart to stop it

In a lab, sure. In reality you need a lot of amps going into the body to get enough amps across the heart to screw with it. Defibrillators wouldn't be chock full of capacitors if that wasn't the case.

Constantly repeating these sorts of misleading DARE-esque talking points is why nobody takes what the safety preachers have to say seriously.

People find out through life experience that smoking while filling gas, a couple amps from arm to arm, working under suspended loads, side rolling big cylinders long distances, using ladders on less than perfect surfaces and other little stuff like that isn't the instant death and dismemberment that they were told it was supposed to be and that throws doubt at everything else.

You can't lie to people 50% of the time even if it's "for their own good" and expect them to believe the other 50% of stuff you say.

Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by MayeulC on Monday January 09, 2023 @12:41PM (#34313170)
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Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by intrepidhero on Monday January 09, 2023 @12:40PM (#34313155)
Defibrillators are full of capacitors to boost the voltage, not current. They also use carefully located electrodes, and come with a razor to remove body hair to create the ideal conditions to affect the heart because they need to work every time. That has nothing to do with whether residential power is dangerous or not.

I said mains voltage won't kill you every time but it definitely can. We wouldn't put it in residential settings if it was instant death. The problem is that the conditions that can lead to a deadly accident don't trigger any of our ape-brain fear response. Like any risk it should be approached with knowledge and care.

If you think any of the things you listed are fine and safe just because they don't result in "instant death" then I would say we have very different ideas about risk management.

I don't appreciate you calling me a liar for presenting facts and urging caution.

Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by dsfyu404ed on Monday January 09, 2023 @02:39PM (#34314938)
Portraying the 80ma number as anything other than what can happen in a freak accident is misleading and dishonest and is counterproductive if the goal is to get people to respect electricity because it is in contradiction to the lived experience of basically everybody.

>The problem is that the conditions that can lead to a deadly accident don't trigger any of our ape-brain fear response.

No. The problem here is that you are peddling fear to get the reaction you want out of people. Potential energy, electric or otherwise is potentially dangerous. Pretending like it's more dangerous than it is to scare people straight is bad. Just because reality doesn't scare people into behaving how you like doesn't entitle you to be dishonest.

>If you think any of the things you listed are fine and safe just because they don't result in "instant death" then I would say we have very different ideas about risk management.

If you think it's ok to just lie to people because you think the end goal is noble I don't care what your ideas are.

Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by OkayPhysicist on Monday January 09, 2023 @03:04PM (#34315244)
Volts and amps are not independent values if you're applying them to the same resistance (you), and you cannot "boost voltage" using capacitors. A capacitor can only charge to the voltage that it is charged with.
Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by martyvis on Monday January 09, 2023 @03:32PM (#34315574)
Yes, a single capacitor will only hold the voltage applied to it. But after charging each one and cleverly arranging them in series you can hold very high voltages with a bank of them. This is what occurs in a voltage multiplier circuit.
Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by antipotoad on Monday January 09, 2023 @12:03PM (#34312614)
Exactly why I believe telling the public anything but the whole truth in a pandemic is a terrible idea (not that I really wish to open that can of worms).
Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by nerdponx on Monday January 09, 2023 @11:57AM (#34312544)
Wait, what? This is like advocating for playing Russian roulette because it's not guaranteed to kill you.
Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by gameman144 on Monday January 09, 2023 @12:24PM (#34312885)
I read it more like saying that we should teach "Russian roulette has a 1/6 chance to kill you, which increases every round", rather than "Russian roulette will definitely kill you."

The former puts the information into the hands of individuals, and let's them draw the appropriate conclusions. With the latter, you risk someone saying "I played Russian roulette and it was fine, this whole safety thing is BS”

This risk is even bigger if millions of people have tried and survived the purportedly deadly activity, such as home wiring shocks.

Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by rootusrootus on Monday January 09, 2023 @12:22PM (#34312850)
There's a pretty big difference in the odds of a house mains electrical shock stopping your heart compared to the 1 in 6 chance of the bullet being in the chamber that lands in alignment with the barrel.
Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by nerdponx on Monday January 09, 2023 @12:32PM (#34313022)
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Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by rootusrootus on Monday January 09, 2023 @04:00PM (#34315984)
> How big? Big enough to disregard?

Yes, pretty much. 400 people are electrocuted in the US every year, usually in industrial situations. Thousands of people will get shocked today. The odds of a heart problem are low enough that suggesting people should be terrified of light sockets because it may stop their heart is just fearmongering, and reduces the effectiveness of other safety-related communication. This is like California proudly proclaiming that everything causes cancer. Counterproductive.

Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by californical on Monday January 09, 2023 @11:34PM (#34320539)
I appreciate the point you’re making, but I’d like a source for

> Thousands of people will get shocked today

Before I come to any conclusions.

According to [0], “There are also at least 30,000 shock incidents per year that are non-fatal” and “ In the United States, there are approximately 1000 deaths per year, as a result of electrical injuries”

So about 1 in 30(ish) if we assume they accounted for nonreporting. If we assume they underreported by 10x, 1/300 is still pretty bad odds

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK448087/

Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by nerdponx on Monday January 09, 2023 @11:38PM (#34320575)
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Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by hattmall on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @10:55PM (#34334846)
That's 30,000 people getting shocked and it being serious, needing to go to the hospital. People doing work around houses get shocked all the time. 120v in typical US house is like mildly annoying. Definitely not trying to hold onto wires with bare hands or anything but getting "bit" while changing light switches or outlets isn't painful enough for many people to worry about finding the breaker box.
Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by idiotsecant on Monday January 09, 2023 @12:56PM (#34313414)
This is a really silly take. Parent post didn't say YOU WILL DIE IF YOU EVER GET SHOCKED, FULL STOP.

They said that you can die if you're shocked. If you have a substantial chance of death doing something it's common sense to avoid that thing, especially when it's trivial to do so. If you want to be a manly man who don't need no safety, go for it, but you're setting up a straw man in OP's post and safety awareness in general that isn't there.

Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by dsfyu404ed on Monday January 09, 2023 @01:46PM (#34314273)
>Parent post didn't say...

Oh please, Officer Do Good who's doing his guest lecture doesn't tell the class that most of those people who's overdose he responded to probably wouldn't have been saved if they eschewed pot. Presenting the edge case as worst case as though it's the common case is lying. Gating it with verbiage designed to make it not provably lying doesn't change that. There's a reason I compared it to DARE. The dishonest messaging is common to both contexts and does more harm than good to the core messaging.

Getting people worried about low voltage or low amperage serves no useful purpose in any context. It is pure manipulative fear peddling of the same level as making people think pot and alcohol are likely to lead to hard drugs.

I'm not saying electricity can't be dangerous. I'm not saying to be cavalier about stuff in general. I'm saying people engaging in dishonest messaging are doing harm by casting shade upon all the people who are preaching similar messages but with honesty.

Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by idiotsecant on Monday January 09, 2023 @02:44PM (#34314977)
I'm not sure why you're so determined to be outraged about something.
Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by ak217 on Monday January 09, 2023 @01:14PM (#34313749)
> Defibrillators wouldn't be chock full of capacitors if that wasn't the case

Disrupting the heart's rhythm is way easier than restoring it. Especially if the disrupting current punctured the skin (which the defibrillator is not allowed to do)

> a couple amps from arm to arm

This is incredibly bad advice. A couple amps at 220VAC is devastating if actually delivered inside your body. The reason people routinely survive mains shocks is dry skin, no path across their body, or no path to ground, which is totally a matter of luck.

Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by Dylan16807 on Monday January 09, 2023 @10:25PM (#34320137)
> Disrupting the heart's rhythm is way easier than restoring it. Especially if the disrupting current got in through punctured skin (which the defibrillator is not allowed to do)

But that's what a defib does. It disrupts your heart's rhythm. And then you hope it goes back to normal.

Re:‘That Girl Is Going to Get Herself Killed’ by michaelmrose on Monday January 09, 2023 @11:39PM (#34320580)
<INSERT DUMB THING> can potentially kill you so always take precautions is about the size of the message that fits in people's brains and everyday decision making process thus it is the reasonably actionable thing to communicate.

If you through further education come to possess a more nuanced view of risk analysis this doesn't invalidate the simpler process it just adds value to your understanding. For instance YOU don't seem to have concluded that there is zero risk through your more nuanced understanding. Why are you assuming everyone is is dumber?