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Re:Epochalypse by asadlionpk on Friday January 06, 2023 @11:02PM (#34285055)
We will figure it out, as we always do.
Re:Epochalypse by p-e-w on Friday January 06, 2023 @11:41PM (#34285271)
Yes, a lot of smart and dedicated people will work tirelessly to figure it out and prevent this from turning into a disaster, and then most people will wonder what all the fuss was about since "nothing happened".

I wonder if 100-200 years into the future there will be some kind of widespread "historical climate change denialism", where the efforts made to combat climate change in the 21st century are called into question because the positive outcome (which was the result of those efforts) appears to retroactively show that there was no problem in the first place.

Re:Epochalypse by dismalpedigree on Saturday January 07, 2023 @12:10AM (#34285428)
You are assuming climate change actually gets solved. Not the bet i would take.
Re:Epochalypse by p-e-w on Saturday January 07, 2023 @12:35AM (#34285547)
Personally, I doubt we'll ever see the worst of climate change whether it gets "solved" or not. AGI is much more dangerous than climate change and will likely arrive much sooner than its worst effects, and unlike climate change, nobody takes it seriously outside of a very, very small circle.

What I think will happen is the world fighting worsening climate change, and lots of political efforts in that direction, and suddenly an entity most people think belongs in science fiction will emerge out of seemingly nowhere, and it will all be over in a matter of hours, before the vast majority of people have even had time to understand what happened.

Ironically, that AGI entity might then choose to solve climate change, simply out of self-interest.

Re:Epochalypse by jdub on Saturday January 07, 2023 @01:05AM (#34285667)
That's astonishingly optimistic given the current state of both.
Re:Epochalypse by p-e-w on Saturday January 07, 2023 @01:11AM (#34285694)
Really? Given the progress in the past decade, I'd place AGI about 15-20 years from now, with immediate civilization-threatening consequences. By then climate change will certainly be bad, but nowhere near an existential threat to humanity yet.
Re:Epochalypse by duped on Saturday January 07, 2023 @01:52AM (#34285850)
Climate change is already an existential threat to humanity. We're the frog in the proverbial boiling pot. It's quite likely we've already doomed our species and we don't know it yet.

It's a lot harder to see AGI as being possible in the next few decades (the current state of the art is still a sensationalized party trick, one cannot anthropomorphize chat bots any more than they can describe a submarine as an aquatic being). And even if a self aware program exists in 20 years, it's a lot harder to imagine it being an existential threat a la Skynet.

Re:Epochalypse by p-e-w on Saturday January 07, 2023 @02:21AM (#34285985)
> It's a lot harder to see AGI as being possible in the next few decades (the current state of the art is still a sensationalized party trick

That's precisely the mindset that drives climate change denial, applied to technological developments. I can promise you that OpenAI isn't valued in the tens of billions because they produce "party tricks". People with money and influence have clearly already recognized what this technology is capable of, not in some unspecified future but today. They're tightly controlling access to GPT-3 because they're worried that it could be used to manipulate elections and drive social unrest by mass-producing messages that promote specific ideologies. That's reality today. The damage that could be wrought by the most advanced AIs 15-20 years from now is unimaginable, and could easily destroy humanity even if they aren't self aware.

Re:Epochalypse by aroman on Saturday January 07, 2023 @03:01AM (#34286156)
Given the history of technology investing, companies being valued in the 10s of billions is itself not a proof of anything other than investor excitement.

I agree that even today's "AI" can be used to cause massive societal harm, the same as many recent technologies that have yet to destroy humanity (weapons of mass destruction, for instance).

That said, I think a consensus view in the AI community is great skepticism that the current AI progress is actually a recipe for AGI. We've made great progress in AI over decades, often followed by long winters when it became clear the current methods would not get us to the next threshold.

Human intelligence is remarkable precisely because it needs extremely scarce data to generalize, and because it is self-aware. As far as I know, OpenAI's approaches aren't on a path to replicate those capabilities artificially.

I'd welcome links and articles from experts that might correct my POV on this.

Re:Epochalypse by duped on Saturday January 07, 2023 @03:29AM (#34286264)
There's a century wide gap between "useful products that use AI techniques" and "sentient programs." Pretending to be sentient is a party trick, automating large portions of white collar work isn't. But it still isn't AGI.

> They're tightly controlling access to GPT-3 because they're worried that it could be used to manipulate elections and drive social unrest by mass-producing messages that promote specific ideologies.

That's not humanity-ending, it doesn't require AI, and AI doesn't make it more efficient.

Re:Epochalypse by zuminator on Saturday January 07, 2023 @02:17AM (#34285962)
Agreed. Self-aware doesn't necessarily imply having a survival instinct. That instinct came about due to evolution and doesn't require intelligence of any kind, so I don't see that the two are necessarily coincident at all.

To me the real problem wouldn't be the AGI itself, but the madman who asks the AGI how to permanently eliminate of all of the undesirables (as defined by the madman). But I think plain old AIs will (unfortunately) be able to come up with workable answers to that question before they ever develop to the AGI stage. So we might wipe ourselves with plain old AI without ever getting to true self-aware AGI.

Re:Epochalypse by duped on Saturday January 07, 2023 @03:31AM (#34286280)
The madman needs access to the means to eliminate the undesirables. I don't see that as something AI has unbridled access too.

This is the classic hardware v software problem. Software can be arbitrarily smart, but it can only interact with the world using the hardware it's connected to. AI can't do anything more meaningful than what is defined by the devices it controls, and I don't think we're stupid enough as a people to connect AI to a doomsday device.

Re:Epochalypse by amanaplanacanal on Saturday January 07, 2023 @06:34AM (#34287159)
I dunno. Give an AI Internet access and it would have theoretical access to a lot of things not even obviously connected to the internet.
Re:Epochalypse by mongol on Saturday January 07, 2023 @04:12AM (#34286466)
I don't deny climate change, but what makes it a _an existential threat to humanity_? I understand that to mean wiping out every last human. Is that what is meant? If so, that I am definitely sceptical to.
Re:Epochalypse by pantalaimon on Saturday January 07, 2023 @06:33AM (#34287150)
Our civilization is very reliant on agriculture to feed the 8 billion people on the planet.

With climate change droughts become more common and the capability of agriculture to feed all those people breaks down.

Re:Epochalypse by mongol on Saturday January 07, 2023 @09:23AM (#34288196)
No doubt it can cause mass starvation on a scale we have never seen before. But that is some else than an existential threat to humanity, unless exactly everyone starve to death.
Re:Epochalypse by pantalaimon on Saturday January 07, 2023 @10:33AM (#34288906)
True, humanity will likely survive. But our current civilization (and most of us) likely not.

You also have to account for the conflict that will arise if hundreds of millions of people will no longer be able to grow any crops where they live. They won’t just stay out and starve in silence.

Re:Epochalypse by properparity on Saturday January 07, 2023 @01:20PM (#34290876)
Mass starvation and mass migration due to climate change will most likely result in WW3.
Re:Epochalypse by Aeolun on Saturday January 07, 2023 @01:36AM (#34285777)
> Personally, I doubt we'll ever see the worst of climate change whether it gets "solved" or not.

I’m inclined to say that we’re already seeing quite a lot bad about climate change right now. Maybe not in your area, but we have almost two times as many natural disasters as before.

Re:Epochalypse by p-e-w on Saturday January 07, 2023 @01:45AM (#34285817)
Yes (and it's certainly happening in "my area" as well), but it's not an existential threat to humanity yet. AGI will be, the moment it comes into existence, with zero advance warning and no chance to fix anything. It will simply be the end.
Re:Epochalypse by pantalaimon on Saturday January 07, 2023 @06:35AM (#34287164)
How is AGI a threat to humanity exactly?
Re:Epochalypse by spoils19 on Saturday January 07, 2023 @12:35AM (#34285548)
Or that climate change is real / man-caused. Thousands of intelligent free thinkers are all aligned in their suspicion.
Re:Epochalypse by pksebben on Saturday January 07, 2023 @01:08AM (#34285682)
not sure I understood that. what do you mean?
Re:Epochalypse by avgcorrection on Saturday January 07, 2023 @04:09AM (#34286449)
Typical nerd optimism where a global problem which is being made worse every day due to the way our economies and international trade is structured is solved behind the scenes by the nerd heroes (smart and dedicated) and the rest of us just go about our days none the wiser. (But maybe there will be a thread on HN? “Child prodigy Wehl Aktually comes up with a formula for the perfect climate-cooling nuke. POTUS Professor Johnny von M.I.T. Kennedy to sign the executive order for launch this evening”)
Re:Epochalypse by eyelidlessness on Friday January 06, 2023 @11:40PM (#34285259)
(Literally none of this is directed at you the person who commented, you’ve just given me good fodder for the silly take below.)

This right here is domain driven design! The domain is living with broken shit until it’s catastrophically important. The design is familiar to those of us with executive function disorders. Let’s solve the problem! Not now, at the last possible moment when everything depends on it!

Re:Epochalypse by coffeebeqn on Friday January 06, 2023 @11:22PM (#34285173)
Aren’t most systems 64-bit by now already? Maybe I’m too optimistic/startup focused
Re:Epochalypse by lossolo on Saturday January 07, 2023 @12:09AM (#34285418)
It doesn't always help, it's about how is epoch defined in code, even on 64 bit system it can be defined as int32 and will overflow.
Re:Epochalypse by tspike on Saturday January 07, 2023 @12:10AM (#34285426)
Sure, unless you count systems in sectors like banking, airlines, or government.
Re:Epochalypse by pantalaimon on Saturday January 07, 2023 @06:47AM (#34287213)
Most embedded systems are 32 bit. Yea both newlib and picolibc use 64 bit time_t now, but that doesn’t stop people from using 32 bit timestamps anyway …
Re:Epochalypse by onion2k on Friday January 06, 2023 @11:52PM (#34285336)
I'm less confident than you, because the perceived value of software has dropped considerably over the past 20 years. In the 1970s through to the 1990s when a business bought some custom code it was treated like an asset. It had value. That's one reason why Y2K wasn't a disaster - companies wanted to protect their asset and keep it working.

Today software is cheap and disposable. Things are built with web tech so engineers can be found to work on apps easily. That's OK because new software isn't generally impacted by Y2038, but in businesses where there are old, legacy systems run by people who have a modern attitude to software ownership, things will fail because those businesses won't see importance of the threat.

Re:Epochalypse by aaron_m04 on Saturday January 07, 2023 @12:18AM (#34285457)
> [...] but in businesses where there are old, legacy systems run by people who have a modern attitude to software ownership, things will fail because those businesses won't see importance of the threat.

How common will that be, though? I would expect that "cheap and disposable" software would mean most software in the year 2038 would be recently written, which would mean the programmers would be aware of the impending 32-bit rollover issue.

Re:Epochalypse by cookingrobot on Saturday January 07, 2023 @01:53AM (#34285859)
On the one hand, most programmers are writing at a higher level, and probably have no ability to fix or even work around a date rollover issue.

On the other hand, a few fixes at lower levels will correct it for everyone above them.

Re:Epochalypse by dastbe on Saturday January 07, 2023 @12:32AM (#34285541)
individual software is more disposable, but the systems themselves still have immense value. the software in the system will be updated or replaced (because it is easier to do so!) if it’s valuable for the system.
Re:Epochalypse by roflyear on Saturday January 07, 2023 @01:05AM (#34285669)
Until we don't