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Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by jameshart on Friday January 06, 2023 @11:12AM (#34276433)
“England with its American colonies” as an example of overstretching this limit?

Once again, when explaining a historic trend or event in terms of what happened in the US, we forget about the existence of the control case: Canada.

Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by macspoofing on Friday January 06, 2023 @11:24AM (#34276678)
>we forget about the existence of the control case: Canada.

Is it though? England did lose Canada to home-rule. In fact, I contend that a major reason why a newly independent (but also broke and fledgling) Canada was not annexed by the US was mainly because of the American preoccupation with civil war and Reconstruction, and the diplomatic efforts of John A. Macdonald.

Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by jameshart on Friday January 06, 2023 @11:30AM (#34276777)
Canada was still subject to the legal authority of the UK parliament until 1982, and was certainly considered fully part of the British Empire until WWI
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by mymythisisthis on Friday January 06, 2023 @03:04PM (#34280220)
Canada was essentially independent since WWI.
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by bee_rider on Friday January 06, 2023 @03:05PM (#34280240)
I think the article was discussing actual facts-on-the-ground empires, rather than polite legal fictions invented to spare the UK from having to face their loss of global status.
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by cma on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:12PM (#34277533)
They lost it to home rule only after it took less than a month to travel there with steam ships, right?
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by macspoofing on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:27PM (#34277804)
The point was they couldn't hold the Canadian colony. Britain didn't give home-rule to Canada because of their good-will. American belligerence towards European presence in the New World, and their rise as a major military and economic power, made holding Canada practically impossible by the mid 1800s (for example, it was untannable for Britain to maintain a large military presence in Canada anymore). Britain fully expected Canada to be annexed. Without the civil war and reconstruction preoccupying Americans during the critical early and fledgling years of the Canadian Dominion, I don't think Canada would have survived as a nation.

In another thread, I also made an argument for another major mitigating factor with respect to Americas, namely, the native populations were wiped out by old-world diseases which prevented local rebellions from succeeding and allowed Europeans to establish large population centers.

Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by jameshart on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:54PM (#34278297)
But the article literally argues that the British loss of the American colonies in 1776 is an example of how an empire can’t retain territory at a month’s remove.

To which the existence of British colonies in Canada after 1776 is kind of a direct rejoinder, right? The eventual loss of those colonies is irrelevant to the point that you can’t explain the American revolution as being an inevitable consequence of remoteness.

Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by TheOtherHobbes on Friday January 06, 2023 @03:29PM (#34280578)
An empire can't retain hostile and unpacified territory beyond a certain limit - which may be set by time, communications, access to local resources and imported logistics, other factors, and all of the above.

If the territory is fully pacified with no significant resistance and/or it's run by dedicated loyalists with plentiful local resources the limit doesn't apply.

Basically an empire can only retain territory against an active threat or resistance within certain limits. If there is no active threat, or the threat is too minor to be a concern, the territory can be considered stable and fully colonised.

Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by jameshart on Friday January 06, 2023 @04:18PM (#34281268)
Aha. So the rule is: empires can only hold territory that they are able to hold. Got it. Useful predictive principle.
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by dsr_ on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:34PM (#34277939)
And also after communication time dropped from 2 weeks to 2 minutes (telegraph, 1866).
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by i_love_cookies on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:30PM (#34277878)
wasn't the war of 1812 partly/mostly driven by a US desire to annex canada?
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by macspoofing on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:38PM (#34278017)
The American state by the mid-1800s was not that same as the one in the early 1800s. America grew into a major economic and military power by then, the point where it was untenable for Britain to maintain direct control over Canada, or to even maintain a major military presence there. The British were ostensibly kicked out of North America by America.
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by tgv on Friday January 06, 2023 @11:16AM (#34276506)
Or Spain and South America?
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by frr149 on Friday January 06, 2023 @11:57AM (#34277256)
Evwn better, Spain and the Philipines
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by charlieyu1 on Friday January 06, 2023 @11:31AM (#34276800)
Russia to Far East?
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by mardifoufs on Friday January 06, 2023 @11:49AM (#34277122)
Almost lost it during the russo-japanese war because it was way too far and very hard to deploy troops to, even with the fledgling trans siberian line. Though I agree that it's a good example!
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by bbarnett on Friday January 06, 2023 @11:13AM (#34276465)
And even more so, re: distance, Australia.
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by macspoofing on Friday January 06, 2023 @11:57AM (#34277265)
The article contends that the reason why the 'month rule' is in play is because of the logistics of ruling over a local population which will attempt to rebel.

So I think a mitigating factor for US, Canada, Australia was that the local native population was wiped out by old-world diseases, so there was minimal capability for local population to rebel. This is also the major factor of why those nations' population is largely made-up of the descendent of the colonists. Contrast that with Africa, which suffered from similar attempts at colonialism, was much closer to Europe, but because its native population was not susceptible to European diseases (and in fact, the colonists were decimated by native diseases like malaria), Africa today has a tiny number of colonial descendants (around 5 million European descendants out of a population of ~1 billion)

The population of pre-colonized North America was on the order of 60 million (European population was on the order of ~70 million). Had that population been maintained (i.e. not wiped out by old-world diseases), there was zero chance of European powers being able to establish large colonial populations. In that scenario, once the technological advantage was removed (due to trade, for example), I think you would have seen successful native rebellions.

I would say South America also follows this pattern. No chance of the Spanish being able to establish large colonial populations or maintain hold over native South American populations had they been not wiped out by old-world diseases.

Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by mardifoufs on Friday January 06, 2023 @11:57AM (#34277261)
You are right of course but I think Canada is a pretty unique case. Canada exists in huge part because of the american revolution. British-american loyalists have basically founded upper Canada, which is now Ontario, so it makes sense that they were particularly close to the throne and the British homeland and government. French-canada was also just recently conquered and placated by the Quebec Act, but still tried a couple of uprisings during the Patriot wars of 1837-38.

I don't think Canada would've stayed british without the loyalist escaping here, since they made it an inherent part of their identity to not revolt against the british as opposed to the americans they left behind. But agreed, there are too many exceptions in general to the article's point.

Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by masklinn on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:04PM (#34277402)
> You are right of course but I think Canada is a pretty unique case.

As opposed to Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa?

Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by mardifoufs on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:17PM (#34277627)
Yes, if you read the rest of my comment I explained why. Canada has had a very big (relatively speaking) influx of deeply loyal british-american refugees that often directly fought the revolutionaries down south.

That meant that the early history of english canada was very deeply influenced by an almost identity defining loyalism to britain, because those refugees often left everything behind in the US to stay loyal the crown. In a way, being british was the entire point of early anglocanadian identity.

I think that makes it pretty different from Australia, a penal colony and South Africa which was conquered more than colonized (and was very hard to hold on for the british). I was more trying to explain why Canada was an outlier in the Americas, and how Britain managed to hold it very easily for so long, even with a free population and little direct military occupation.

Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by wintogreen74 on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:23PM (#34277723)
I'm a 10th+ generation Canadian of German ancestry, whose relatives had both an affinity for the British Empire (initially fleeing persecution to England) and a practical one: rich farmland in exchange for fighting with the loyalists against the upstart colonists. It's hard to determine which had the bigger impact.
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by jameshart on Friday January 06, 2023 @01:01PM (#34278414)
So… empires can’t retain territory over a month away from its capital, unless it’s populated by people loyal to the empire?

Isn’t the point of the month rule that it’s hard to maintain a loyal population at that distance? So this amounts to saying ‘well the rule doesn’t apply to Canada because the rule doesn’t account for Canada’.

Right. So it’s a bit of a rubbish rule then?

Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by mardifoufs on Friday January 06, 2023 @01:13PM (#34278579)
I agree that the rule is basically worthless, but my point was more that Canada had an exceptionally loyal population, and disproportionately so compared to what we coule expect from "normal distribution"! It can, in part, explain the rift between the US and Canada :)
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by bregma on Friday January 06, 2023 @01:12PM (#34278556)
The influx of loyalists was a couple of generations before the 1837 rebellions in both Upper and Lower Canada. Yet another generation elapsed before home rule with responsible government was devolved from Westminster and a few more before Canada was considered "independent" from the centralized Empire by the Statute of Westminster in 1931.

A century is a pretty long time for your argument about the beliefs of some individuals to stay valid.

Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by mardifoufs on Friday January 06, 2023 @01:35PM (#34278890)
Yes that's my point though. The patriot wars happened after the loyalists were well settled, and at a point when upper canada in general was almost as established as lower canada. French-canada was barely loyal, and would've probably been a huge torn in the backside of Britain if it wasn't balanced by a super loyal anglo population that counterbalanced the animosity of french canada.

The loyalists shaped the relationship Canada had with britain, and while I'd guess even their descendants were a minority (relative to immigrants) by the mid 19th century, it still defined Canadian identity even to this day. If Canada hadn't seen that initial influx of usually rich, upper class loyalists that became the founding stock of upper canadian politics/elite, we might have had a very, very different outcome. One that is more in line with most other colonies in the New World.

Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by meatyloafy on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:23PM (#34277717)
There is quite a difference between conquering (and thereby assimilating) versus killing almost all natives and then populating the place with your own settlers..
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by macspoofing on Friday January 06, 2023 @01:30PM (#34278821)
>versus killing almost all natives and then populating the place with your own settlers..

The native population was not killed but rather decimated by disease. Pre-colonial population of North America was on the order of 60 million - there was zero chance European powers being able to hold that size of population over a period of time. Contrast that to Africa, which today has a minimal population of European descendants ... because that native population had immunity.

Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by jameshart on Friday January 06, 2023 @01:35PM (#34278895)
That’s a funny definition of ‘not killed’ you’re using.
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by kspacewalk2 on Friday January 06, 2023 @01:42PM (#34278981)
They died, but they were indeed not killed. You may say something flowery like "the diseases killed them", or "the arrival of the Brits killed them", but the British empire or its subjects did not kill the vast, vast majority of Native North Americans who died as a consequence of their arrival.
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by meatyloafy on Friday January 06, 2023 @02:06PM (#34279308)
They were killed by what the settlers brought with them. No, it was not deliberate (#), but nevertheless, their arrival is what killed most of the natives.

(#) Obviously the settlers would have preferred to keep the natives alive since then they would not have needed to ship vast quantities of Africans across the ocean to enslave, but could have just done that with the locals.

Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by macspoofing on Friday January 06, 2023 @02:14PM (#34279398)
>They were killed by what the settlers brought with them. No, it was not deliberate (#), but nevertheless, their arrival is what killed most of the natives.

That's all I meant to clarify. You'd be surprised how many people today actually think that the native population was wiped out through deliberate and intentional action. Your wording made it seem you believed that as well, but that seemed to not be the case.

>Obviously the settlers would have preferred to keep the natives alive since then they would not have needed to ship vast quantities

That's a caricature.

Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by 8note on Friday January 06, 2023 @02:28PM (#34279612)
It was intentional though. The bison didn't disappear because of western disease, they were hunted out to break up the natives ability to resist, so they could be killed and corralled, and the land be granted to settlers.

Canada intentionally withheld food it owed to natives as part of treaty agreements, with the understanding that if a bunch of people starved to death, Canada wouldn't need to send as much food.

Similarly, disease was spread intentionally through small pox blankets, with the intention listed

Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by ldh0011 on Friday January 06, 2023 @02:35PM (#34279726)
It may not be the case that deliberate and intentional actions alone could have wiped out the natives but it seems pretty clear that there were a lot of deliberate and intentional actions both to kill them and take their land (Trail of Tears, Spanish conquests in South America). Those actions just wouldn't have been as successful without the diseases.
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by klibertp on Friday January 06, 2023 @02:51PM (#34280010)
Well, news outlets are perfectly comfortable with saying that this or that COVID policy "killed" millions and will kill even more... If only the British instituted lockdowns, quarantine, and mass testing for diseases, the Native Americans could have lived!

(Not saying this is the right perspective, but I understand why people would argue for it, especially when using ahistorical lens of today's diseases handling)

Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by stjohnswarts on Friday January 06, 2023 @01:44PM (#34279011)
However the natives where still wiped out by European diseases nonetheless, a direct result of Europeans coming here, I'm sure the Europeans of the time were grateful for that even if it wasn't a result of direct action on their part, they would have been fine with it happening.
Re:The size of an empire cannot be larger than 1 month of tr... by SoftAnnaLee on Friday January 06, 2023 @01:01PM (#34278423)
I would say that Canada managed to stay loyal to the crown because for two major reasons. The first being the founding "myth" of Canada being the British loyalist colonists of the US migrating as a result of the US' revolution. Them fleeing north to a major seat of political power likely had a strengthening effect on being a willing subject to the crown than most colonies.

Secondly, Canada is something of an imperial power unto itself. There are countless stories of armies marching under the crown violently clashing with nations that existed on the continent prior to European colonization. Likewise, even other European descended colonist as well as the Métis were subjugated by British rule as the Anglophone powers expanded across the continent (e.g. Queen Anne's War, Red River Rebellion, and Fenian raids). Gaining the ability to exploit the natural resources that these other nations and colonies held.

The crown was a convenient way to gain both legitimacy from the British loyalists who settled in Canadian territory and a reliable trading partner to receive resources from in the British Canadian bids for expansion. Compared to the US, who used democratic rule to gain its own legitimacy; and who's natural resources were abundant enough to be a valuable trading partner.